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PollyMobiles Rebuild
- Thread starter pollyp
- Start date
Im at home for lunch at 12 mate if you can wait till then il look it up
OP
OP
pollyp
Club Member
i wonder, what if i just order the same shells as whats currently fitted?
that way i don't risk it being any tighter than when the crank & shells were new yet no looser than it currently is? crank may have worn down a tiny fraction but not as much as the bearing shells.
that way i don't risk it being any tighter than when the crank & shells were new yet no looser than it currently is? crank may have worn down a tiny fraction but not as much as the bearing shells.
PDF of the haynes book mate
superb, thx skinner
No problem fella, hope you get this all sorted with the amount of time you've invested in it
OP
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pollyp
Club Member
rang afew local factors and they don't have any other than a place down essex :/
but my local machinist says bring the assembly over and he'll measure it for me (using his dials prob alot more accurate than plasticine) and he can also get the shells. ok thats the plan, I'll take the engine over tomorrow morning
but my local machinist says bring the assembly over and he'll measure it for me (using his dials prob alot more accurate than plasticine) and he can also get the shells. ok thats the plan, I'll take the engine over tomorrow morning
frank
Club Member
the journals usually wear more than the shells paul, same with the little ends (you get a wear step on the hard steel gudgeon pin and no wear on the soft alloy piston believe it or not !)
and its the ovality of the journal (bigend or main) that will be the decider, if the machinist measures more than a couple of thou ovality, he will advise a crank grind and undersize shells.
i usually shave a thou or two off the caps and girdle to close the clearances on mine, till the journal starts to go tight when its fully torqued up, then i apply some G3 paste/oil mix and leave the assy slowly turning for 1/2 an hour with an electric motor.
that micro polishes all the surfaces and gives a clearance of about 1/2 a thou
and its the ovality of the journal (bigend or main) that will be the decider, if the machinist measures more than a couple of thou ovality, he will advise a crank grind and undersize shells.
i usually shave a thou or two off the caps and girdle to close the clearances on mine, till the journal starts to go tight when its fully torqued up, then i apply some G3 paste/oil mix and leave the assy slowly turning for 1/2 an hour with an electric motor.
that micro polishes all the surfaces and gives a clearance of about 1/2 a thou
OP
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pollyp
Club Member
odd, whats the point of the shells if they're harder than the crank i thought the shells were suppose to be the expendable wearing bits rather than the expensive bits they're riding up against.
I'll let the machinist measure it all and then we could decide the size of the main bearings, how much to deglaze off the bores and what ring size to order from JE (if I ever get a reply off em)
i thought the shells were suppose to be the expendable wearing bits rather than the expensive bits they're riding up against.I'll let the machinist measure it all and then we could decide the size of the main bearings, how much to deglaze off the bores and what ring size to order from JE (if I ever get a reply off em)
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pollyp
Club Member
tried JE sports compact tech dept and the answer machines full again so i called sales general enquiry who transferred me to tech dept and finally spoke to a guy there.
he opened the piston job # and found the min bore dia this piston was made for was bout 71.396mm converted from inch.
he said the pistons would prob be a 2618 alloy.
the rings also seem to be a custom job and he'll need afew hrs to search for the details n pricing.
gave my email and he'll send me the pistons job sheet with pricing of the rings.
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pollyp
Club Member
hmm little confused on the measurements.
the 2618 instructions says i need at least 0.004" clearance (0.1016mm) for a turbo.
a 71.396mm bore means the piston would have to be bout 71.193mm, smaller than what i measured.
his first conversion was bout 71.5mm which required a piston of 71.3mm which is close to mine.
but anyway, i'll wait till he sends the job sheet to make a proper calc
the 2618 instructions says i need at least 0.004" clearance (0.1016mm) for a turbo.
a 71.396mm bore means the piston would have to be bout 71.193mm, smaller than what i measured.
his first conversion was bout 71.5mm which required a piston of 71.3mm which is close to mine.
but anyway, i'll wait till he sends the job sheet to make a proper calc
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pollyp
Club Member
was gonna finish inserting the pistons and crank back on the block to take to machinist tomorrow but after going to cinema i was outa time and outa patience, have to wait another day.
the top main bearing were all this
frank i checked the oil rings against the light and just like ur pic, these regapped oversized rings were all over the place, light leakin through almost half of the rings. plus i feel the oil ring expander seems a tad weak. all of which ain't gonna help control oil. end gaps were tighter than JEs min gap. seems the tighter bore dia may have mis-shaped the rings then?
on the bright side, I got the datasheet email from JE
so the bore is suppose to be 71.5mm minimum
they've got the ringset PN XC7150 available at $66.60 for 4 cylinders plus delivery and tax n custom
the top main bearing were all this
frank i checked the oil rings against the light and just like ur pic, these regapped oversized rings were all over the place, light leakin through almost half of the rings. plus i feel the oil ring expander seems a tad weak. all of which ain't gonna help control oil. end gaps were tighter than JEs min gap. seems the tighter bore dia may have mis-shaped the rings then?
on the bright side, I got the datasheet email from JE
so the bore is suppose to be 71.5mm minimum
they've got the ringset PN XC7150 available at $66.60 for 4 cylinders plus delivery and tax n custom
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OP
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pollyp
Club Member
pistons and crank refitted back on, wrapped n ready to take to machinist tomorrow
here's the stock oil pan with some baffle features. i wonder if it could be improved cos the 2 big corner gaps seem to let alot of oil slosh left up towards the crank when i'm turning a long fast right hander, potentially starving the pump and foaming the oil against the crank.
maybe some sorta one-way hinged flap or a loosely tethered bung on the lower side of those LH gaps?
so that normally the flap or bung allows oil spilling from the crank n block to flow down the LH shallow slope, through the LH baffle gaps and fill up the baffled lower sump around the pickup.
once i turn hard right, the oil tries to gush left, out through the LH gaps but that reversed flow pushes the hinged flap or bung to shut off the gap and keep most of the oil inside and close to the pickup.
when i straighten back up, the oil stops surging left against the flap or bung so they loosen and allow oil to flow back down the slope and into the sump
or another alternative is to seal off the 2 LH gaps? so the oil can't easily slosh out leftwards and during the straights or left turns, the returning oil is made to flow back in via the center hole around the pickup or the RH gaps.
here's the stock oil pan with some baffle features. i wonder if it could be improved cos the 2 big corner gaps seem to let alot of oil slosh left up towards the crank when i'm turning a long fast right hander, potentially starving the pump and foaming the oil against the crank.
maybe some sorta one-way hinged flap or a loosely tethered bung on the lower side of those LH gaps?
so that normally the flap or bung allows oil spilling from the crank n block to flow down the LH shallow slope, through the LH baffle gaps and fill up the baffled lower sump around the pickup.
once i turn hard right, the oil tries to gush left, out through the LH gaps but that reversed flow pushes the hinged flap or bung to shut off the gap and keep most of the oil inside and close to the pickup.
when i straighten back up, the oil stops surging left against the flap or bung so they loosen and allow oil to flow back down the slope and into the sump
or another alternative is to seal off the 2 LH gaps? so the oil can't easily slosh out leftwards and during the straights or left turns, the returning oil is made to flow back in via the center hole around the pickup or the RH gaps.
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pollyp
Club Member
dry sump it eh paul
good point about the expander rings earlier btw, they,re designed for 72mm eh
how do you dry sump a wet sump?
i thought these forged pistons were new and so would surely have came with the proper sized rings?
the pistons were made in 2007 so could it be that they were used but by the time i brought it off noddie, the rings been replaced by the oversized 72mm rings hence couldn't seal proper?
OP
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pollyp
Club Member
sounds extensive n expensive. meh stock pan will do for now. though reducing or shutting off the LH gaps might improve oil control looking at this site
http://www.seight.com/baffle.html
http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?139425-Cosworth-YB-Sump-Baffles-and-Big-Wing-Conversions
i think someone in the forum had welded baffles in their sump, can't remember who?
pistons been doing the rounds eh. didn't i once see Ed from fusion selling it yrs ago or maybe it was a different set?
http://www.seight.com/baffle.html
http://www.turbosport.co.uk/showthread.php?139425-Cosworth-YB-Sump-Baffles-and-Big-Wing-Conversions
i think someone in the forum had welded baffles in their sump, can't remember who?
pistons been doing the rounds eh. didn't i once see Ed from fusion selling it yrs ago or maybe it was a different set?
Their history as far as i know... Broony got them from ed and had that block overbored. then never fitted them because the company who were going to messed up the forged rods that he wanted to use with them, which is when i got them. Iv got the rods too but the company have filed them because of clearance issues so they are scrap. Im fairly sure the pistons were new when me and frank fitted them and i assume so where the rings. i assumed the rings were correct for pistons and overbore??
Im very sorry that this has turned out to be such a pita mate, i just hope that it all works out and you have a nice strong engine in the end
Im very sorry that this has turned out to be such a pita mate, i just hope that it all works out and you have a nice strong engine in the end
Their history as far as i know... Broony got them from ed and had that block overbored. then never fitted them because the company who were going to messed up the forged rods that he wanted to use with them, which is when i got them. Iv got the rods too but the company have filed them because of clearance issues so they are scrap. Im fairly sure the pistons were new when me and frank fitted them and i assume so where the rings. i assumed the rings were correct for pistons and overbore??
Im very sorry that this has turned out to be such a pita mate, i just hope that it all works out and you have a nice strong engine in the end
Filed the rods?! What did they do.......file out a large chunk off the big end to clear the liners or something?
OP
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pollyp
Club Member
Their history as far as i know... Broony got them from ed and had that block overbored. then never fitted them because the company who were going to messed up the forged rods that he wanted to use with them, which is when i got them. Iv got the rods too but the company have filed them because of clearance issues so they are scrap. Im fairly sure the pistons were new when me and frank fitted them and i assume so where the rings. i assumed the rings were correct for pistons and overbore??
Im very sorry that this has turned out to be such a pita mate, i just hope that it all works out and you have a nice strong engine in the end
thx for the insight ed
maybe it was a fraction too overbored cos the piston top would rock in the old cyl like 1mm compared to the current tighter rebored block, which might not have helped it seal proper before all the hone marks wore.
plus on my end, maybe i first bedded it in too quickly and went WOT high rev wayy to soon which could glaze it?
meh anyway its now with the machinist to check over.
meanwhile i'm trying to order the new ringset from netherlands.
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pollyp
Club Member
filed what at right angles? big ends are fine
OP
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pollyp
Club Member
thats the one i saw. ah tis a different engine and sump.
i still think patching up the LH corner gaps on the stock baffle is the way to go.
no, actually i think i'll be best off cutting the old baffle out and making a completely new sealed off horizontal baffle like this
the sump is mild steel eh? wonder if it's thick enough for my arc welder, meh i'll just pulse tack weld it in place like when i did my IC piping to keep heat down
D'OH! That is way beyond an EPIC FAIL.......although it will make me sick to see, I'd love to see a photo of that if you can stomach it.
We've baffled our sump but I don't have any photos to show......pretty similar to #2882 though. I'd love to dry sump for a few reasons but the engine build is already radical enough for me....
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pollyp
Club Member
tday i helped costa inspect another micra to replace his crashed SR.
its a red 1997 1.0 vibe 3dr for £399 mot & taxed.
twas raining which didn't help but on initial appearance the outside looks clean but its usually deceiving.
i wanted to check the engine cold but the guy who got the key, started her up to drive inside the garage away from the rain.
anyway she cold starts fine and the milage says 84k but upon cranking i saw a hint of blue smoke before steam plus the timing chain tensioner is rattly noisy so engine's quite worn.
guys were friendly at first, if not too friendly. gut feels the offer seems too good to be true. car in the garage, I got my checklist and commenced the thorough long inspection of everything.
first common check is chassis and straight away the crossmembers all rusty holes, MOT failure, £100-150 to replace front frame.
outer sills been patched but peeked under and both inner sills have 2 big holes each, £60
LH main beam faulty
LH outer gaiter split £5
silencer blowing straight out £30
fan card blown £5 conductive paint
stereo broken
rear brakes binding after releasing handbrake
clutch bitepoint was low and clutch cable adjustment nut was at 1/2-3/4 way down the thread so its getting abit worn £30+
LH rear bumper is slightly cracked n rocking loose so its been in a rear knock
and then i went to grab my laptop to check the sensors and costa noticed the guys face dropped
plugged in, coolant sensors reading ok, battery 11.8v
started her, lambda working, alternator 14v, ecu coolant sensor was rising very slowly and temp gauge barely registering and coolant peaks at 76C during idle. when i test drive down the road the gauge then raises upto normal halfpoint.
so either the thermostat is stuck open £10 or the temp sensors are reading too low.
overall it'll cost prob an extra £250 on top of the £399 sale price to fix her up for the mot in august = £650, subtract the £130 to scrap the crashed SR = £520, which he could've either spent towards a better non-rusty high end micra or spent fixing the damaged SR.
so thats the reason why its so cheap.
imho I'd walk away due to the rust holes.
but costa was very enthiusiastic and egor to buy it for £370 that he was offered as he thought yea a local mate could weld the crossmember and sills for cheap. he called his mom to come over with the money.
meanwhile he noticed there's no tax, trade guy says soz mate the post offices prob shut now and he couldn't offer tax after dropping to £370, twas originally £499.
bullcrep and my alarms ringing.
further prodding i pushed the back of the sills/rear arch and poof another big rust hole on both sides, £60.
now costa was having doubts. i pointed out the repair costs, the extra £100 tax disc, to put his ego and ambitions to one side and think about it long term, and if he had doubts I'd walk away.
if he'd want the car I'd try offer £300 for the missing tax.
he went over to ask and the guy went mental lol
ranting, "oh FFS what dya expect for a £399 car and you bring this guy to friggin probe every inch of it for such cheap motor rather than some 2k leguna..where the heck you get this guy from!?..take ur money and get the feck outa here!"
lol i think i pissed em off hehe "thanks 4 ur time, byye"
drove him back home laughing at how close he came to buying a wreck. well we both learnt bout the non-friendly side of buying cars eh.
its a red 1997 1.0 vibe 3dr for £399 mot & taxed.
twas raining which didn't help but on initial appearance the outside looks clean but its usually deceiving.
i wanted to check the engine cold but the guy who got the key, started her up to drive inside the garage away from the rain.
anyway she cold starts fine and the milage says 84k but upon cranking i saw a hint of blue smoke before steam plus the timing chain tensioner is rattly noisy so engine's quite worn.
guys were friendly at first, if not too friendly. gut feels the offer seems too good to be true. car in the garage, I got my checklist and commenced the thorough long inspection of everything.
first common check is chassis and straight away the crossmembers all rusty holes, MOT failure, £100-150 to replace front frame.
outer sills been patched but peeked under and both inner sills have 2 big holes each, £60
LH main beam faulty
LH outer gaiter split £5
silencer blowing straight out £30
fan card blown £5 conductive paint
stereo broken
rear brakes binding after releasing handbrake
clutch bitepoint was low and clutch cable adjustment nut was at 1/2-3/4 way down the thread so its getting abit worn £30+
LH rear bumper is slightly cracked n rocking loose so its been in a rear knock
and then i went to grab my laptop to check the sensors and costa noticed the guys face dropped
plugged in, coolant sensors reading ok, battery 11.8v
started her, lambda working, alternator 14v, ecu coolant sensor was rising very slowly and temp gauge barely registering and coolant peaks at 76C during idle. when i test drive down the road the gauge then raises upto normal halfpoint.
so either the thermostat is stuck open £10 or the temp sensors are reading too low.
overall it'll cost prob an extra £250 on top of the £399 sale price to fix her up for the mot in august = £650, subtract the £130 to scrap the crashed SR = £520, which he could've either spent towards a better non-rusty high end micra or spent fixing the damaged SR.
so thats the reason why its so cheap.
imho I'd walk away due to the rust holes.
but costa was very enthiusiastic and egor to buy it for £370 that he was offered as he thought yea a local mate could weld the crossmember and sills for cheap. he called his mom to come over with the money.
meanwhile he noticed there's no tax, trade guy says soz mate the post offices prob shut now and he couldn't offer tax after dropping to £370, twas originally £499.
bullcrep and my alarms ringing.
further prodding i pushed the back of the sills/rear arch and poof another big rust hole on both sides, £60.
now costa was having doubts. i pointed out the repair costs, the extra £100 tax disc, to put his ego and ambitions to one side and think about it long term, and if he had doubts I'd walk away.
if he'd want the car I'd try offer £300 for the missing tax.
he went over to ask and the guy went mental lol
ranting, "oh FFS what dya expect for a £399 car and you bring this guy to friggin probe every inch of it for such cheap motor rather than some 2k leguna..where the heck you get this guy from!?..take ur money and get the feck outa here!"
lol i think i pissed em off
hehe "thanks 4 ur time, byye"drove him back home laughing at how close he came to buying a wreck. well we both learnt bout the non-friendly side of buying cars eh.
OP
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pollyp
Club Member
nice 1 paul
never mind i got rid now
oh well. oppurtunities come and go. he only has max £400 plus £100 from scrapping the sr to spend on buying & repairing a micra to a reliable economic MOT passing standard. his search continues
me and my mam have decided that she will lend me money for a new bumper, front panel and wing and then when the claim goes through then i will show the the reciept for what i bought to fix the car and the estimators price for the fix so i can get my money back
hopefully paul i should be up and driving in the next month
and then when the claim goes through then i will show the the reciept for what i bought to fix the car and the estimators price for the fix so i can get my money back hopefully paul i should be up and driving in the next month
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pollyp
Club Member
thanks again paul ahahahaha that was the funniest things is that he was a complete utter dickhead
have you noticed they've just removed the Tax off the description lol
Nicely 'marked down' to hook people in eh!
Real advert probably goes something like this....'Part ex owing money. First gullible young buyer to see will buy. Excellent first introduction to the world of bent motors. Buy now - pay later'
solarice
Ex. Club Member
Reminds me of a couple of sellers i've met, one micra had all the plugs disconnected from the "carb" cos it makes it go faster!! (those guys were actually ok, but you can guess the gut feeling i got from talking to them and seeing them drive the car haha).
The other car dealer had this micra sitting around for a bit and when i went to look at it the tyres and battery were flat, but while inspecting i found rattly chain, cracked exhaust manifold, bad exhaust to name a few bits. He went off it aswell when he asked what i'd pay for it lol...he basically chased me out the garage lol.
Really hope you get your engine probs sorted out soon polly, such a shame the hassle you've had...makes me think i've probably overreacted when i've had the little (in comparsion) issues with mine.
The other car dealer had this micra sitting around for a bit and when i went to look at it the tyres and battery were flat, but while inspecting i found rattly chain, cracked exhaust manifold, bad exhaust to name a few bits. He went off it aswell when he asked what i'd pay for it lol...he basically chased me out the garage lol.
Really hope you get your engine probs sorted out soon polly, such a shame the hassle you've had...makes me think i've probably overreacted when i've had the little (in comparsion) issues with mine.
OP
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pollyp
Club Member
hehe nicely said rider
indeed solarice, some sellers are just silly.
tend to just ignore the sellers good will, armed with a list of what to check for and how much each repair could cost you focus on checking the whole car over, add up the sale price with the repair cost to an MOT'able state and judge if the car is worth the time n money, and watch their mood change
waiting for engine to be machined next week so got some spare time to clean up the head, valves n thinking about rebaffling the oil sump.
i'm not sure on how to design the new oil baffle.
of course leave the holes in the middle for the pickup and dipstick but dunno if I should:
1- seal up the edges to totally prevent the oil below from sloshing out to one side and hope that the returning oil will flow back into the chamber through the central pickup hole without any air blockage or
2- leave smaller gaps all round so the return oil can still seep back down through the edge slots but won't slosh out as fast as the big gaping baffle holes on a stock pan.
watching my trackday at oulton when i drive round the cambered 180deg corner i hear some whiney pump noise afew secs after turning in and dunno if its the sound of the PAS or if its the oil gradually sloshing left outa the sump baffle and starving the oil pump?
indeed solarice, some sellers are just silly.
tend to just ignore the sellers good will, armed with a list of what to check for and how much each repair could cost you focus on checking the whole car over, add up the sale price with the repair cost to an MOT'able state and judge if the car is worth the time n money, and watch their mood change
waiting for engine to be machined next week so got some spare time to clean up the head, valves n thinking about rebaffling the oil sump.
i'm not sure on how to design the new oil baffle.
of course leave the holes in the middle for the pickup and dipstick but dunno if I should:
1- seal up the edges to totally prevent the oil below from sloshing out to one side and hope that the returning oil will flow back into the chamber through the central pickup hole without any air blockage or
2- leave smaller gaps all round so the return oil can still seep back down through the edge slots but won't slosh out as fast as the big gaping baffle holes on a stock pan.
watching my trackday at oulton when i drive round the cambered 180deg corner i hear some whiney pump noise afew secs after turning in and dunno if its the sound of the PAS or if its the oil gradually sloshing left outa the sump baffle and starving the oil pump?
OP
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pollyp
Club Member
paul have you had a chance to ring america. and i hope it will be ready and fully working for JAE can't wait for this year, should be awesome
emailed ProX in netherlands but no reply yet. I'm gonna ring em tday to find out if they have the rings.
it'll all be ready for JAE one way or another
ya see the spannerheads have dropped the Vibe down to £375 lol
