PollyMobiles Rebuild

[Low Rider]

k this is what i came up with


too tired to expain how it works, until tomorrow chaps

"it's elementary my dear watson"

 

[mike-f]

decent work there

 

[pollyp]

gonna reorientate it with a diamond chamber layout rather than square chamber to prevent oil on one side of the runners from easily sloshing over to the runners on the opposite side during directional changes.

 

[pollyp]

looking into Windage trays for the crankcase i figured i could make one from a louvre vent panel

hmm might not work.
looking at all the pic of windage trays, the main bearing caps are usually small n individual which allows the tray to be located right underneath the spinning crank.

but on the micra engine, the main bearing caps are all casted together in this massively overengineered main bearing cage surrounding the crank (prob to save some factory labour and further strengthen the casing) so a windage tray won't work
(unless the engine is re-engineered with the main bearing caps cut into seperate pieces? fancy a try frank?)

 

[pollyp]

this is the redesigned baffle with a diagonal chamber

the front vertical baffle runs diagonally in order to miss the dipstick while still seperating the front left/right outer runner cells

need to mockup a template in card, then in plastic to test its works before making it in steel

 

[frank]

(unless the engine is re-engineered with the main bearing caps cut into seperate pieces? fancy a try frank?)

no thanks, that girdle design is integral to the strength of the block eh paul
and i think you just need a perforated drum around the pickup pipe personally (just to slow the oil slosh down)

 

[pollyp]

no thanks, that girdle design is integral to the strength of the block eh paul
and i think you just need a perforated drum around the pickup pipe personally (just to slow the oil slosh down)

aye i'll leave the crankcage alone for now and prob drill summore oil drain holes at the bottom.
until the day i find this forged engine still hasn't worked and I feel little bit more wreckless n adventurous n cut apart the lower cage up for fun lol.

a sieve drum round the pickup might not hold enough oil during some very long right handers that i'll be flying round, especially at the ring, and the sieve would be causing a continuous restriction which is the last thing the pump needs when running near max revs

 

[pollyp]

made a mockup of the chamber and it'll be a nightmare to fit it against the badly corregated battered sump shape to get any sealing

very close to the drain plug

the sump inclines earlier than i thought and had to trim the corner of the chamber by this much. guess the doors could be shifted over abit but with the lack of seal at the bottom it's pointless

made the top plate

test fit

ok the vertical trapdoor chamber layout isn't easy to fit and won't work with this sump so it's back to the original horizontal trapdoor idea.

I cut two flaps on the left & right sides

added vertical baffle/trapdoor stopper

with this idea, the flap openings are reversed and some louvres above help funnel the returning oil into the chamber during directional changes.

when straight & level, both flaps are open and oil can return into the chamber

when turning left:
*the RH flap shuts as the oil inside tries to escape, keeping most of the oil inside contained
*oil from the LH would be collected by the LH louvre and guided down past the open LH flap to fill the chamber
*the remaining oil above the baffle plate gathers around the RH flap/louvre ready to be collected when the car changes direction

when turning from left to right:
*the LF flap shuts as the oil inside tries to escape, keeping most of the oil inside contained
*oil that was gathered from the RH would be collected by the RH louvre and guided down past the open RH flap to fill the chamber
*the remaining oil above the baffle plate gathers around the LH flap/louvre ready to be collected when the car changes direction

 

[pollyp]

rather than a windage tray I may just make a crank scraper positioned either horizontal under the back of the block or vertical on the front of the crank girdle, looks easy enough to make

 

[pollyp]

just noticed that this short flange on the upper back of the pan tries to seal against the crank girdle and forms a small splashscreen or baffle directing the oil splash back down the sump rather than up the crankcase.

will be replaced with a proper scraper

 

[pollyp]

here's a helpful page about scrapers n widage trays
http://www.crank-scrapers.com/What is a crank-scraper.html

some scrapers are made from steel (requires fine grinding till it clears) or teflon (just needs trimming till its barely touching the parts and the spinning crank will then contact & trim the last few thou and the soft teflon wont scratch the crank).

may go the teflon route

 

[pollyp]

bit tired from designing this all night but here's the updated baffle

 

[pollyp]

engine and cranks been machined but told they need 0.25mm oversized main and big end bearings, which they'd need to order oversea and take few weeks and so said I should check if my contacts have em in stock.

rang nissan and their system quoted £50 per car, dunno if thats per set (main & bigend = £100) or per pair Shell! (4 mains & 4 bigends = £400!!) lmao

phoned matt humphris bout the shells and he'll ring me back with quote
...yikes its quoted £165 for a full set of main, bigend & thrust bearings!
thats painful. oh why did i decide to get the crank machined?
shoulda just left it.

the cost of fitting this forged engines spiralling skyhigh :/

meanwhile i'm gonna order a dial bore gauge and micrometer to measure bores n bearings myself
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280885589575
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370487227528

 

[pollyp]

thought of a new baffle design that's simpler and with the hinge gates laid vertical so they'll work properly. to be modelled n updated later tonight

 

[pollyp]

this is the new baffle design

the bottom plate links & strengthens the bottom of the ported sideplates together while the plates that come up the front/back connected to the top baffle stiffen the bottom end from skewing and also baffles the forward/backward motion.

the edge of the ported sideplates seals the baffle chamber while the verge cavity on the outside of the sides serves to hold the oil pool and feed through an open port when cornering

when straight & level, oil can fill the chamber from both gates

when turning left

turning right

 

[pollyp]

well this is just brill, the machinist says their normal supplier has stopped doing that 0.25mm shell and their guys looking around for it, this is all after the cranks grinded ffs

only matt has quoted £165

this is not good

 

[pollyp]

was thinking of getting my torque recalibrated but machinists can't do it and suggested calling my distributor, the machine mart repair/service centre wasn't picking up.
seems a shame to waste an existing wrench but at £30 i may as well just buy another clarke wrench to be sure the torques correct?

 

[mckenziecz]

just put some sort of durable foam in there!

 

[pollyp]

just put some sort of durable foam in there!

not sure bout that. there's risk of restricted flow at high revs especially when clogged with debris & sludge and risk of it breaking up and damaging the oil system

 

[pollyp]

ok some better news
got another call from a local engine recon place Erimus Engines and the guy can get the +0.25mm cg13de main shells £29.69, bigends £22.64 and thrustbearings £10 + vat all for tomorrow so overall tis bout £86.80 delivered (but i'll be collecting directly so will prob be £75) much better price

when i get the new rings I'll also give em to machinist to properly file n gap

 

[mckenziecz]

not sure bout that. there's risk of restricted flow at high revs especially when clogged with debris & sludge and risk of it breaking up and damaging the oil system

if its good for racing car or aircraft petrol tank cant see why id wouldn't work here. just a suggestion. seem like a lot of hassle

 

[pollyp]

if its good for racing car or aircraft petrol tank cant see why id wouldn't work here. just a suggestion. seem like a lot of hassle

hmm i'll look into it, just don't trust it yet and i don't plan on having to take the sump off to replace the sump foam every few weeks like a racing team.

looking at this page it seems that any foam exposed to heat and oil long enough would harden n break up n clog the oil system which is not good.

http://www.mycaterham.com/66828/120916.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*

for fuel systems tis fine, I may consider it for the fueltank cos alot of fuel will slosh all over the place other than the fuel pickup when fuels low.

 

[frank]

was thinking of getting my torque recalibrated but machinists can't do it and suggested calling my distributor, the machine mart repair/service centre wasn't picking up.
seems a shame to waste an existing wrench but at £30 i may as well just buy another clarke wrench to be sure the torques correct?

test the calibration yourelf paul it should show 50lb/ft when it lifts a 50lb weight with the leverage of 1 ft eh (or 25lb @ 6 inch etc)
and i hope you are getting -25 shells, +25 ones will be a bit of a pi##-fit

 

[mckenziecz]

hmm i'll look into it, just don't trust it yet and i don't plan on having to take the sump off to replace the sump foam every few weeks like a racing team.

looking at this page it seems that any foam exposed to heat and oil long enough would harden n break up n clog the oil system which is not good.

http://www.mycaterham.com/66828/120916.html?*session*id*key*=*session*id*val*

for fuel systems tis fine, I may consider it for the fueltank cos alot of fuel will slosh all over the place other than the fuel pickup when fuels low.

could probably use wire wool of some sort. id personally use swirl pot for the fuel though

good luck

 

[pollyp]

test the calibration yourelf paul it should show 50lb/ft when it lifts a 50lb weight with the leverage of 1 ft eh (or 25lb @ 6 inch etc)
and i hope you are getting -25 shells, +25 ones will be a bit of a pi##-fit

yea i saw a webpage bout how u diy calibrate ur wrench with some mathes and weights.
gotta take into account the weight of the wrench itself.
i think there's a grubscrew hole in the middle of the wrench where u can adjust the spring?
i'll test it throughout its entire range, make sure the spring still reads linear and not degraded after numerous bad habits of storing it left at high settings after say doing the driveshafts and using it to undo stuck driveshaft nuts

i told the guy the stock cranks been grinded down so the shells need to be thicker than std by 0.25mm, i hope thats what he understood.
can you get thinner than std shells to accomodate larger than std journals? i'd thought any stock crank from factory would be upto or below std dia spec? and if machined it'd be smaller than std so you'd normally get thicker shells?

 

[pollyp]

could probably use wire wool of some sort. id personally use swirl pot for the fuel though

good luck

i'll stick to basic solid baffle plates, don't fancy having metal shards floating about n sucked up the pickup after few months.

i'm sticking to stock fueltank

 

[frank]

a torque wrench is only accurate relative to the friction in the thread anyway eh paul, i bet you can get upto 50% discrepency in readings between a dry or threadlocked and an oiled thread.
like the old story i heard about the rolls royce aero engines made in usa in ww2, where they apparently chromed the headbolts or nuts and then stripped loads threads lol

 

[pollyp]

a torque wrench is only accurate relative to the friction in the thread anyway eh paul, i bet you can get upto 50% discrepency in readings between a dry or threadlocked and an oiled thread.
like the old story i heard about the rolls royce aero engines made in usa in ww2, where they apparently chromed the headbolts or nuts and then stripped loads threads lol

indeed
i find that every headbolt behaves uniquely when i torque them up, even when I've cleaned, retapped, flushed thread with carb cleaner, dried and reoiled the bolt threads with same amount of 10w40, plus the block threads were given the same treatment.
and yet some bolts torqued up smoothly and some were creeky n frictional which didn't provide confidence halfway through the torqueing sequence and was worried that if i back out halfway through the final torque sequence it'd mess up the quality of the gasket seal.

while torqueing and sensing the amount of force required my gut feeling sometimes tells me i might be overtightening more than normal as i sense the force seems to just peak over the crest (e.g. just before it gets loose as the thread material weakens before stripping) even though the wrench didn't click (like as if the ratchet teeth wasn't fully seated or the mechanisms slightly stuck).
in that case i back off slightly, then rewind the ratchet by one teeth and try again till it clicks when it feels right.

 

[pollyp]

tday the bore gauge arrived

the interchangable rear pin has a ball-point that centers that side while the other end has the sliding pin which measures the bore

this sprung loaded sliding pair of rollers and the single ball-point nib wedges the tool against the sidewalls which centres it

also got the 50-75mm micrometer. essential tool used as the setting up reference for the bore gauge

coolant pipe o-ring

timing cover oil o-ring

genuine HG

Aluminium piano hinge

 

[pollyp]

made the cardboard mockup

fits nicely in the sump.
the securing brackets will be welded onto the sump and then the baffle is screwed onto the brackets so that its removable to be cleaned whenever the sumps next removed.

LH gate

RH gate

trimmed and loosened the hinge till they flap around freely

they're split in 2 to work independantly when acceleration and braking and the oil sloshes forwards or backwards

the flap stops against this edge so it doesn't open too far and get stuck

may need to allow more opening cos the gap between the bottom of the flaps and base plate is too shallow when fully open

 

[pollyp]

adjusted the edge so the flap can only fully open 90deg

 

[pollyp]

got the bearings
0.25mm mains £29.69
0.25mm bigends £22.64
stock thrustbearing £10
importing from abroad £10
vat £14.47
=£86.80

this is the thrust bearing

0.25mm bigends

mains

machinist lady was abit quizzed that it says MA10 cos she was having lota trouble specifying to suppliers that it must be for a CG engine hence the difficulty in finding.

do the MA10 & CG13/CG10 share the same bearings?
...according to global technologies int website they use the same parts
http://www.gtiuk.co.uk/parts_details.php?engineID=769

also got manifold gasket. i prefer these perforated metal types cos they tend to be more durable

 

[pollyp]

made the support bracket

positioned in sump

test fit the sump and it seems the baffle chambers too far right by 1cm

the LH gates way too close to the pickup

the pickup bracket fouling the top

tweak the model n retest

 

[pollyp]

remodelled with corrected measurements

i moved the LH panel further away from the pickup so the hinge clears it. by doing so, if the port was still at the bottom it'd be too close to where the sump starts to incline upwards and restricts flow. so the port is positioned at the top of the LH panel where it'll be in a clearer path of the oil sloshing from the left of the pan over to the right, plus it allows the hinge swing unobstructed by the pickup

the lower assembly meets the bottom right of the upper assembly (blue) at 1" away from the port, this allows the vertical sides of the lower assembly to clear the swinging arc of the RH hinge.
the petruding step on the RH of the vertical sides is level with the RH hinge pivot and serves to stop the hinge from swing up beyond 90deg.

the upper left of the lower assembly is 1" away from the LH port so it clears the LH hinge.
where the bottom left of the lower assembly meets the bottom left of the upper assembly is moved far left as possible away from the pickup.
this allows the hole at the bottom of the lower assembly to be directly underneath the pickup so its not obstructed n restricting.

the front support bracket welded to the sump that the whole baffle assembly will be bolted onto has a notch cut in the middle to clear the dipstick

 

[pollyp]

made the mockup

positioned the support brackets

fitted

LH port

RH port

lets test fit n see if it clears the pickup this time

 

[Noddie]

Are you sure those hinges are light enough for the oil to push open? Don't want to end up starving the pump eh.

 

[pollyp]

Are you sure those hinges are light enough for the oil to push open? Don't want to end up starving the pump eh.

yep

they're alu plus i pryed the pivot apart slightly looser so it will now simply swing about freely, keeps pointing down towards gravity at all angles

 

[pollyp]

test fitted and its almost spot on.

here at the pickup hole its centered

the pickup support bracket at the back is centered to the cutout slot

at the back of the pickup the bracket is just resting on the edge

trimmed it back and it nows clears

dipstick hole needs shifting over slightly

repeat model tweaking and make another piece trial & error eh

 

[pollyp]

tweaked mockup. added a folded edge in the middle to stiffen the opening

the pickup bracket now clearing the hole

dipstick hole diameter is reduced to minimise leaking during cornering and is now located perfectly

positioning the templates on the sheet steel

 

[Noddie]

Good stuff the design is excellent, was just worried anout the hinges. Good stuff paul! Looking forward to deeing it all welded up

 

[pollyp]

thx for the compliment ed
i'll water test it again, possibly with a fishtank water pump to simulate the flow, once the support brackets welded to the sump and exposed holes are patched up.

u guys know if the holes this small could be filled up on their own by simply welding it up from the edge inwards or maybe place a piece of Alu or copper behind it as a barrier guide and weld inwards? or would i have to weld a steel plate to the holes? need to experiment

think i'll just pop rivet the baffle assembly together then pop rivet it to the support brackets. when i need to remove it for cleaning i just drill out the rivets.

where the plate on the oil pickup seals against the hole in the middle of the baffle is critical otherwise all this hinge design is pointless cos oil would simply leak out the top hole, so positioning the plate must be accurate. will need my local welder to tig/mig it on without damaging the pickup pipe.

need to go get summore sheet metal for the pickup plate, crank scraper and a louvre vent for the windage tray

 

[Stani1029]

Is it all going to be worth the hassle? And wont you test it with oil to ensure all the doors will work as you expect them too....

 

[pollyp]

yes course it'll be worth it making this baffle, already gone this far and no turning back. considering the high stresses it'll be put under, especially with semi slicks, a turbo and this new engine, improving any oil control is essential to prevent all that hard work grenading itself halfway through a corner.

testing with water is just to confirm the fluid is controlled as expected. the principle of the gated baffle works well in motorsport.
testing with oil at ambient temp will be inaccurate cos the cold oil will be too thick and its incredibly messy (neighbours wont be happy )
at operating temp the hot oil is thinner so will flow through an open gate with ease. cos its slightly thicker than water it'll be more effective for the gate to shut and seal against when the flow reverses during cornering.

 

[pollyp]

marked out the template

drilling out the holes. the hole cutter obviously not meant for metal but taking it slowly with some wd40 it makes nice clean round cuts. now cutting the edges with a dremel

 

[pollyp]

made the lower assembly. cut the upper part tomorrow

 

[pollyp]

upper panel is cut

bent into shape

cut off the stiffening lip cos the metal was rigid enough and trying to bend the edge would be too much work and could warp the flatness of the panel that the hinge seals against

all riveted up

took out the thick piano hinge pin cos it could pop out and could bind the hinge so replaced with a thin piece of wire

trimmed the inner edge of the gate so they dont touch

taped up the sump holes for a quick water test

baffle slots in nice n snug so won't bother making the support bracket yet for this test

covered up the pickup hole with a clear lid to see whats happening inside

 

[pollyp]

testing the hing moves freely



filled with 3.5L water and sloshed it around.



looking through the porthole it seems to remain fully submerged during short sudden lateral sloshes.
its only when i tilt it at extreme angles for long periods at 0:27 (simulate say 1/2G lateral load for a very long corner) that it leaks out but at a much reduced rate than say the stock baffle, mostly through the gap between the vertical baffle & sump wall but bear in mind its not anchored down onto its support bracket yet so it's floating up away from the sump abit to allow this leakage. will retest once the brackets fitted to hold it down, plus I'll be sealing the baffle to the sump wall with PU sealant so fluid def won't leak past them gaps easy

cut n bent the support bracket

figured i could just open the vice jaw 10mm and notch the V shape with the end of my hammer quite easily

first one done

baffle painted in high temp black to help slow corrosion after the water test

finish the other bracket later on and then we could get welding.

still alota work to finish the pickup cover, crank scraper & windage tray

 

[pollyp]

accessing the rivets so close to the sump wall will be difficult with the bulky rivet gun

so had to trim it down so it can reach down

bracket riveted to baffle and in place. just needs welding to the sump tomorrow

 

[pollyp]

tried to plug weld hundreds of holes and its just near impoossible to get a thorough good penetrating fill with this stick weld, its sooooo frustrating
tried welding from the outside in and just clumps all to one side.
tried quickly weld round the hole once, let it cool briefly and try again but the slag simply fills the hole and leaves voids afterwards.
tried placing an Alu rod underneath, start the molton pool in the middle then swirl out to the edges, again the molton either doesn't join to the edges with poor penetration, or the whole pool joins at one end only (the brightest one-sided glow) and burns a hole off the other end

tried plug welding the old baffle onto the sheet steel with poor penetration and just breaks away

at the very lowest amps the pool is stable n more controllable but has poor penetration. if i just keep on building the pool, the slag would just fill the remaining holes and when the molton pool mass get hot enough to join the edge, it just gathers at one-side n gets hotter/bigger, leaving alot more grinding work. the slag filled holes leave a void when chipped away and needs yet more welding.

at low amps rated for bout 1-1.5mm sheet, it sparks more violent and the hotter pool just burns through

so crap at any welding other than butt welding which was barely do-able.

i think i'll need to pay me local welder to weld it all up proper

 

[pollyp]

blimey he quoted me £30 for couple of welds taking bout a week

for that much i could get a massive sheet of steel to practice plug welding hundreds of times.

well, guess I'll have to do it myself. ordered summore 1.6mm stick for tenner