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PollyMobiles Rebuild
- Thread starter pollyp
- Start date
Shaun
***StaGGeRed***
I would, and it would save you effort.
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pollyp
Club Member
I would, and it would save you effort.
agreed
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pollyp
Club Member
according to this site the federal 595 rs-r seems to be the best all rounder and for just £85 each brand new
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre-Type/Passenger-Car-Summer-Trackday-and-Competition-Tyres/
seems tempting as last resort if no r888 comes up
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre-Type/Passenger-Car-Summer-Trackday-and-Competition-Tyres/
seems tempting as last resort if no r888 comes up
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pollyp
Club Member
cheapest pair of 595 rs-r i found was £158 delivered new
http://www.tyretraders.com/tyreInformation.aspx?ItemID=FED19550ZR1582W595RS-R
also pair of hankook RS-2 was £126 delivered new
http://ssl.delti.com/cgi-bin/rshop....kplz=&Cookie=&language=&typ=R-119466&dsco=110
http://www.tyretraders.com/tyreInformation.aspx?ItemID=FED19550ZR1582W595RS-R
also pair of hankook RS-2 was £126 delivered new
http://ssl.delti.com/cgi-bin/rshop....kplz=&Cookie=&language=&typ=R-119466&dsco=110
Polly those hankooks are fantastic. A vastly underrated road/track compromise tyre, better than an 888 imho as it won't leave you in a ditch if the surface gets wet. I don't have experience with the 595 rs-r personally yet. Considering the price difference I think it's a no brainer.
btw don't you think the sample size in that comparison chart is too small to read anything into it?
btw don't you think the sample size in that comparison chart is too small to read anything into it?
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pollyp
Club Member
my cousin did suggest the rs2 first then the ad08.
this would prob only be used on a dry track and fitted onto spare pair of alloys.
that chart was only listing track tyres, though only afew
reviews of the 595rsr seems good but whether any of em translate to my setup is unknown
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pollyp
Club Member
everything swapped over to the forged engine
looking at the turbo
turbine is fine
check the gasket
the lapped mani/gasket face definately sealed better
turbine/gasket seal ok
to fix the slightly whiny worn gearbox i opened both boxes
the whiny noise (sounds like a whirry worn wheel bearing) was only when on the power in-gear and pitch matches engine revs so prob the input shaft bearings.
held the input shaft via the bearing casing, spun and listen, and it sounded slightly noisy like rolling a metal ball in a ceramic bowl. rocking the bearing casing it has little play.
i held & spun the shaft from the other gearbox and its very slightly quieter but rocking the bearing casing has slightly more play.
i know i should prob try to keep the two gear cogs matched but the secondary shafts bearing from the newer gearbox spun smoother.
so basically i swapped the input shaft from the spare gearbox into the newer silvery gearbox. hope it solves the noise
also tested the LSD and the preload is working
looking at the turbo
turbine is fine
check the gasket
the lapped mani/gasket face definately sealed better
turbine/gasket seal ok
to fix the slightly whiny worn gearbox i opened both boxes
the whiny noise (sounds like a whirry worn wheel bearing) was only when on the power in-gear and pitch matches engine revs so prob the input shaft bearings.
held the input shaft via the bearing casing, spun and listen, and it sounded slightly noisy like rolling a metal ball in a ceramic bowl. rocking the bearing casing it has little play.
i held & spun the shaft from the other gearbox and its very slightly quieter but rocking the bearing casing has slightly more play.
i know i should prob try to keep the two gear cogs matched but the secondary shafts bearing from the newer gearbox spun smoother.
so basically i swapped the input shaft from the spare gearbox into the newer silvery gearbox. hope it solves the noise
also tested the LSD and the preload is working
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pollyp
Club Member
absolutely
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pollyp
Club Member
flywheel fitted
clutch on. thermostat on. gearbox on. every bolt has been threadlocked to make sure they don't vibrate loose again
the rear bush needs stiffening cos it moves too much
don't have any rubber to glue in but instead i figured I'd pack it with bodyfiller
so it sets rock solid and moulds to the gaps. not a permenant solution cos it'll prob soon vibrate out but it'll do for now
hmm the central beam has this rubber resonance damper to prevent it from resonating at certain frequencies. no need for that here
with the radiator out the exposed chassis was undersealed
central beam fitted
now ready to install the engine tomorrow
clutch on. thermostat on. gearbox on. every bolt has been threadlocked to make sure they don't vibrate loose again
the rear bush needs stiffening cos it moves too much
don't have any rubber to glue in but instead i figured I'd pack it with bodyfiller
so it sets rock solid and moulds to the gaps. not a permenant solution cos it'll prob soon vibrate out but it'll do for now
hmm the central beam has this rubber resonance damper to prevent it from resonating at certain frequencies. no need for that here
with the radiator out the exposed chassis was undersealed
central beam fitted
now ready to install the engine tomorrow
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I'm not Paul but the AD22VF pistons are 54mm
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pollyp
Club Member
to simplify supporting the engine on the crane flat n level i bolted some brackets here & here, tie knot on rope ends
and it hangs level
engine fitted. i think the threads for the LH gearbox mount and front mount are getting weaker cos rather than suddenly tightening when the bolts are torqued up i feel it begin to strip n loosen so just stopped at that point before damaging it.
shafts in and filled the gearbox up
and it hangs level
engine fitted. i think the threads for the LH gearbox mount and front mount are getting weaker cos rather than suddenly tightening when the bolts are torqued up i feel it begin to strip n loosen so just stopped at that point before damaging it.
shafts in and filled the gearbox up
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OP
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pollyp
Club Member
loom connected, radiator in, TB on.
just awaiting the turbo assembly before the alternator.
so mani & gtir elbow was wirebrushed n painted with several coats of hammerite matt black high temp paint
all the IC tubes also sprayed matt black then laquered
test fitting the heat wrap. got more than enough wrap for the mani, turbine, elbow and the downpipe
the wrapping would cover all the bolts so first the turbo's all bolted up before wrapping tomorrow
just awaiting the turbo assembly before the alternator.
so mani & gtir elbow was wirebrushed n painted with several coats of hammerite matt black high temp paint
all the IC tubes also sprayed matt black then laquered
test fitting the heat wrap. got more than enough wrap for the mani, turbine, elbow and the downpipe
the wrapping would cover all the bolts so first the turbo's all bolted up before wrapping tomorrow
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OP
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pollyp
Club Member
figured the best wrapping route. cut it to length, soak in water and wrap it tight
secured with ties
test fit the wrap around the elbow
wrapped n secured
used the remaining wrap on the downpipe
turbo assembly fitted
new wideband
alternator n belts on. coolant & oil filled
battery was at 12.5v
time to prime the oil system.
plugs out, crank for 30secs, oil light still on.
crank a further 30secs then the light goes out, continue to 40sec.
crank for 40secs twice to get the oil going around the system and through the turbo, noticable dip in crank speed when its all primed.
battery at 12v
just quickly trickle charged for an hour and its 12.9v now ready.
with oil primed, i'll recheck oil levels again tomorrow when i jack it down
secured with ties
test fit the wrap around the elbow
wrapped n secured
used the remaining wrap on the downpipe
turbo assembly fitted
new wideband
alternator n belts on. coolant & oil filled
battery was at 12.5v
time to prime the oil system.
plugs out, crank for 30secs, oil light still on.
crank a further 30secs then the light goes out, continue to 40sec.
crank for 40secs twice to get the oil going around the system and through the turbo, noticable dip in crank speed when its all primed.
battery at 12v
just quickly trickle charged for an hour and its 12.9v now ready.
with oil primed, i'll recheck oil levels again tomorrow when i jack it down
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pollyp
Club Member
new ducktape on the hub
brakes fitted
IC pipes fitted
switched back to edited forged engine map. primed oil & fuel.
nervously started her up, abit sluggish initially, idle screw too low, but soon cleared.
kept revs moving up & down within 2-3k to just warm her up. some oil smoke initially, then steam once warming up, and then clear when warm.
once warmed up i shut down to cool.
ecu temp was fine but dash temp gauge was off. found twas the sensor connector wire had broke
replaced with blade connector and works again
assess plugs n cylinders and it doesn't look good
all plugs are black n sooty. #2 had some spongy lumps trapped in it, prob PU sealant from the ptfe spacer gasket
looked in and FFS oil on the piston
oily coating on all piston tops
went for the first break-in drive. keeping revs up & down when stationary and drive on/off power upto 1/2 throttle between 2-4k rpm.
after 50miles its still oily
oil level stable, dipped down very slightly.
check warm compression and its 10.8 11.1 11.6 10.9
changing oil tomorrow then drive a further 500m 1/2 throttle in town. dunno if it'll fix itself
brakes fitted
IC pipes fitted
switched back to edited forged engine map. primed oil & fuel.
nervously started her up, abit sluggish initially, idle screw too low, but soon cleared.
kept revs moving up & down within 2-3k to just warm her up. some oil smoke initially, then steam once warming up, and then clear when warm.
once warmed up i shut down to cool.
ecu temp was fine but dash temp gauge was off. found twas the sensor connector wire had broke
replaced with blade connector and works again
assess plugs n cylinders and it doesn't look good
all plugs are black n sooty. #2 had some spongy lumps trapped in it, prob PU sealant from the ptfe spacer gasket
looked in and FFS oil on the piston
oily coating on all piston tops
went for the first break-in drive. keeping revs up & down when stationary and drive on/off power upto 1/2 throttle between 2-4k rpm.
after 50miles its still oily
oil level stable, dipped down very slightly.
check warm compression and its 10.8 11.1 11.6 10.9
changing oil tomorrow then drive a further 500m 1/2 throttle in town. dunno if it'll fix itself
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pollyp
Club Member
changed oil and opened the filter to inspect
afew microscopic metal bits and some muck, looks normal
drove the next 50-100miles of bedding-in
checking plugs, still sooty and pistons wet
driving further 50miles
the plugs are now sooty with white specks and the ground electrodes burnt white, prob from oil?
gonna try swapping to the hotter stock bkr5e plugs to see if that leans it out
bkr5e starts off like this
checking the almost clear oil on the shiny silver stick is tricky so i paint it matt black to see things clearer
checked compression and its improved since last night:
11.2 11.3 11.8 11.3 after 150m of bedding in
afew microscopic metal bits and some muck, looks normal
drove the next 50-100miles of bedding-in
checking plugs, still sooty and pistons wet
driving further 50miles
the plugs are now sooty with white specks and the ground electrodes burnt white, prob from oil?
gonna try swapping to the hotter stock bkr5e plugs to see if that leans it out
bkr5e starts off like this
checking the almost clear oil on the shiny silver stick is tricky so i paint it matt black to see things clearer
checked compression and its improved since last night:
11.2 11.3 11.8 11.3 after 150m of bedding in
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pollyp
Club Member
tried to rec the exhaust during cold start (engine at 10C) earlier tday but the damn camera froze so dunno if it smoked upon cranking, but shortly after cranking the exhaust would emit the same heavy soot particles like before. once warmed up the exhaust is fine.
when i left it to cool from 2pm to 7pm and warm start her from 25C the video showed no smoke or anything at all
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pollyp
Club Member
few miles down the road the bkr6e plugs have sooted up.
compression seemed to have stabilised.
after now reaching 250m of break-in, the cylinders still wet.
measured that after 100m the oil's gone down 1/2 a dipstick, exactly same as before.
other than the improved compression from a tighter fitting bore, this is all a carbon copy of what happened last year with this engine.
i figure oil can only get in at this rate via the rings or stem seals.
the rings and the engine head assembly are the same as last time, tis only the bore that has been machined better.
so i'm thinking either the oil rings are crap, although the compression rings seem to be improving, or the old inlet stem seals are buggered and leaking badly? although wouldn't it smoke alot more during initial acceleration after high rev deceleration?
i'll rec tomorrow morning whether it'll smoke during cold cranking.
maybe i'll need to do dry & wet compression test to see if they're roughly the same, if yes then that may point to the stem seals
compression seemed to have stabilised.
after now reaching 250m of break-in, the cylinders still wet.
measured that after 100m the oil's gone down 1/2 a dipstick, exactly same as before.
other than the improved compression from a tighter fitting bore, this is all a carbon copy of what happened last year with this engine.
i figure oil can only get in at this rate via the rings or stem seals.
the rings and the engine head assembly are the same as last time, tis only the bore that has been machined better.
so i'm thinking either the oil rings are crap, although the compression rings seem to be improving, or the old inlet stem seals are buggered and leaking badly? although wouldn't it smoke alot more during initial acceleration after high rev deceleration?
i'll rec tomorrow morning whether it'll smoke during cold cranking.
maybe i'll need to do dry & wet compression test to see if they're roughly the same, if yes then that may point to the stem seals
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frank
Club Member
my money would be on the oil rings paul, one of mine smoked on startup in the morning (1st and 2nd gear only then stopped smoking, but drank 1 pint/1000 miles) and when i checked the rings in the bore of an empty block, i could see little arcs of daylight here and there, where they were,nt making contact with the bore (only 1 or 2 thou)
the 2 compression rings exert far more pressure on the bores but dont scrape the oil off the bores for some reason !.
the oil control rings are far thinner tho eh, and seem to scrape the bores far more efficiently with less pressure.
i,ve had the same problem with our kart engines in the past, if those oil control rings are,nt a perfect fit you get a pool of oil left on the piston crown, and oil consumption too
the 2 compression rings exert far more pressure on the bores but dont scrape the oil off the bores for some reason !.
the oil control rings are far thinner tho eh, and seem to scrape the bores far more efficiently with less pressure.
i,ve had the same problem with our kart engines in the past, if those oil control rings are,nt a perfect fit you get a pool of oil left on the piston crown, and oil consumption too
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pollyp
Club Member
Oh bugga more work n money
So should i continue breaking in the top rings n bores towards 1000miles then hopefully just replace the oil rings?
Or will the excess oil affect the bedding and or the oil rings need to be bedded in with the top rings meaning i have start ALL over again!
So should i continue breaking in the top rings n bores towards 1000miles then hopefully just replace the oil rings?
Or will the excess oil affect the bedding and or the oil rings need to be bedded in with the top rings meaning i have start ALL over again!
OP
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pollyp
Club Member
there must be a way to diagnose for bad oil rings or bad stem seals?
i should prob try replace the simpler steam seals first before considering the big expensive task of replacing oil rings.
anyone in north east have a pressure line that i could hook up to the spark hole to hold the valves in while i replace the steam seals?
if simply replacing oil rings won't work I may as well just chuck this engine away and swap back to the original stock engine with replaced HG thats blown :/
i should prob try replace the simpler steam seals first before considering the big expensive task of replacing oil rings.
anyone in north east have a pressure line that i could hook up to the spark hole to hold the valves in while i replace the steam seals?
if simply replacing oil rings won't work I may as well just chuck this engine away and swap back to the original stock engine with replaced HG thats blown :/
frank
Club Member
i re-shaped mine paul (they,re steel/workable eh, unlike the cast compression rings) its this current engine actually.
the oil rings were totally gummed into the pistons originally, so i cleaned and stretched them, but i had slightly miss-shaped them while stretching and they had the daylight patches.
the 1st corsa piston engine had a similar problem problem (i had it underbored eh) and the arc of the ring miss matched the arc of the bore, and that one smoked horrendous !.
iirc yours were oversize rings that were gapped eh, maybe the same problem ?
i spent about 1 hour tweaking these ones till i could,nt see daylight, and it cured it
the oil rings were totally gummed into the pistons originally, so i cleaned and stretched them, but i had slightly miss-shaped them while stretching and they had the daylight patches.
the 1st corsa piston engine had a similar problem problem (i had it underbored eh) and the arc of the ring miss matched the arc of the bore, and that one smoked horrendous !.
iirc yours were oversize rings that were gapped eh, maybe the same problem ?
i spent about 1 hour tweaking these ones till i could,nt see daylight, and it cured it
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pollyp
Club Member
i re-shaped mine paul (they,re steel/workable eh, unlike the cast compression rings) its this current engine actually.
the oil rings were totally gummed into the pistons originally, so i cleaned and stretched them, but i had slightly miss-shaped them while stretching and they had the daylight patches.
the 1st corsa piston engine had a similar problem problem (i had it underbored eh) and the arc of the ring miss matched the arc of the bore, and that one smoked horrendous !.
iirc yours were oversize rings that were gapped eh, maybe the same problem ?
i spent about 1 hour tweaking these ones till i could,nt see daylight, and it cured it
with the bore machined to a smaller tighter dia which brought the ring end gaps back to min specs, maybe the oil rings are mis-shaped. it leaks the same amount across all 4 cylinders.
how do you bend n shape the oil rings without affecting the end gaps?
wanna try the easier cheaper valve steam seal replacement first
sleeper_ss
Ex. Club Member
Impressed with your patience..hope it's the stem seals...
"the central beam has this rubber resonance damper to prevent it from resonating at certain frequencies. no need for that here"
Thanks..wondered what that was for.Dumped mine too,heavy affair iinit
"the central beam has this rubber resonance damper to prevent it from resonating at certain frequencies. no need for that here"
Thanks..wondered what that was for.Dumped mine too,heavy affair iinit
frank
Club Member
no the corsa pistons are 72.5mm paul, but mine were well worn so i asked him to underbore it by 15" thou so i could regap the rings the smaller 72.2mm ish (and i honed the pistons down to a nice snug fit)
but when i gapped the rings down they did,nt fit the bores properly (as in pic, the arc of daylight showing on the righthand side)
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pollyp
Club Member
i shoulda checked for that gapage when i was checking the oil ring end gaps well now i know for next time
wideband very sooty so taking it out for now to stop the soot wrecking it
recorded the cold start this morning and it struggles to get going on its own due to the oil so had to apply abit of throttle.
it smokes badly for the first few secs of burning that oil pool, then runs better as its burnt off and clear into steam but at 1:30 a whole ploom of wet soot comes gushing out coating everything
once warmed up after a mile it appears to be clear at idle
drove from 175 towards 300m of break-in, tested dry & wet compression and got:
cyl1 cyl2 cyl3 cyl4
11.3 11.6 11.9 11.2 dry
12.1 12.2 12.4 12.1 wet
00.8 00.6 00.5 00.9 difference
its all gone up almost 1 bar so maybe the old rings are shot?
the pistons always wet whether i'm cranking it freely with or without plugs.
after free cranking, large amounts of oil can be seen creeping inwards from all sides (inlet port top, exhaust port bottom), mostly from the inlet side, the same way amonst all cylinders.
restarting the warm engine, didn't smoke at idle just the same oily soot but first dab of WOT towards redline and it smokes blue/white from the excess oil, then began recording the video. less smoky the next time, just very rich and hint of oil smoke
almost losing the plot with this damn engine now. all that work for nothing.
well now i know for next timewideband very sooty so taking it out for now to stop the soot wrecking it
recorded the cold start this morning and it struggles to get going on its own due to the oil so had to apply abit of throttle.
it smokes badly for the first few secs of burning that oil pool, then runs better as its burnt off and clear into steam but at 1:30 a whole ploom of wet soot comes gushing out coating everything
once warmed up after a mile it appears to be clear at idle
drove from 175 towards 300m of break-in, tested dry & wet compression and got:
cyl1 cyl2 cyl3 cyl4
11.3 11.6 11.9 11.2 dry
12.1 12.2 12.4 12.1 wet
00.8 00.6 00.5 00.9 difference
its all gone up almost 1 bar so maybe the old rings are shot?
the pistons always wet whether i'm cranking it freely with or without plugs.
after free cranking, large amounts of oil can be seen creeping inwards from all sides (inlet port top, exhaust port bottom), mostly from the inlet side, the same way amonst all cylinders.
restarting the warm engine, didn't smoke at idle just the same oily soot but first dab of WOT towards redline and it smokes blue/white from the excess oil, then began recording the video. less smoky the next time, just very rich and hint of oil smoke
almost losing the plot with this damn engine now. all that work for nothing.
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frank
Club Member
wishfull thinking paul
i doubt if its the stem seals personally mate, it would smoke mainly after lift or @ wot after prolonged idle eh.
its like the oil control rings are,nt scraping the oil off the bores on the downstroke, but the 2 compression rings are scraping the oil upwards on the upstroke eh !.
the rings are easy to rework, with patience
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pollyp
Club Member
yeah sounds like the top rings are doing their job sealing on the upstroke but the oil ring doesn't on the downstroke.
there's slight oil smoke for a milisec at WOT after prolong idle till fuel catches up and gets very rich with black smoke.
easy stuff before hard, change stem seals before piston rings.
gonna stuf a long rag into the cylinder, turn to TDC to wedge the valves then i think i'll get this OHV spring tool to remove the spring then change the stem seals.
http://www.a1plantsales.com/Overhead-Valve-Spring-Compressor-OHV-Sealey-VS160_AZQO2.aspx
test procedure out on my spare engine first
there's slight oil smoke for a milisec at WOT after prolong idle till fuel catches up and gets very rich with black smoke.
easy stuff before hard, change stem seals before piston rings.
gonna stuf a long rag into the cylinder, turn to TDC to wedge the valves then i think i'll get this OHV spring tool to remove the spring then change the stem seals.
http://www.a1plantsales.com/Overhead-Valve-Spring-Compressor-OHV-Sealey-VS160_AZQO2.aspx
test procedure out on my spare engine first
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pollyp
Club Member
the issue is prob me not checking the rings were gapped/shaped and sealing properly and/or ignoring to replace easy stem seals rather than the piston itself :/
i'd be keeping it at 10psi, just wanted to swap to forged for more reliability and have the potential to handle more power in the future, hehe how wrong this is turning out to be
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pollyp
Club Member
removed injectors to peak inside the inlet valves for oilyness
no major signs of dripping oil down the stem
but the back of the valves quite shiny oily
trying to purge out the little pool of oil off the piston by cranking was tricky, just stays there.
so i tried to stuff a rag down the plug hole to soak the pool up
cranked with no compression for 40sec, piston still dry, no oil seeping in.
cranked with plugs in, piston still dry.
not accurate test by any means and oil is cold (try again when its warm) but least at cranking speed the rings are not leaving a serious amount of oil on the walls.
when i saw the oil seeping inwards after cranking earlier, maybe the oil itself had slowly accumulated there from the leaky stem seal then the warm pool of oil was simply spread across the whole piston face during the movement of cranking, rather than vapourise out the plug hole like fuel, and then once stopped, the thin oil just creeps back down the dome face under gravity?
no major signs of dripping oil down the stem
but the back of the valves quite shiny oily
trying to purge out the little pool of oil off the piston by cranking was tricky, just stays there.
so i tried to stuff a rag down the plug hole to soak the pool up
cranked with no compression for 40sec, piston still dry, no oil seeping in.
cranked with plugs in, piston still dry.
not accurate test by any means and oil is cold (try again when its warm) but least at cranking speed the rings are not leaving a serious amount of oil on the walls.
when i saw the oil seeping inwards after cranking earlier, maybe the oil itself had slowly accumulated there from the leaky stem seal then the warm pool of oil was simply spread across the whole piston face during the movement of cranking, rather than vapourise out the plug hole like fuel, and then once stopped, the thin oil just creeps back down the dome face under gravity?
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pollyp
Club Member
fingers x its just the stem seals.
cheapest place i found was either £33 for 16 stem seals from dublin
http://www.micksgarage.co.uk/gasket...nissan/micra/micra/1992-2003/1.4-i-16v/15471/
or £30 for a whole gasket set off ebay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NISSAN-MI...arts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item1e561c0a5c
chose next day postage which bumps it all to £33 anyway
its a no brainer
i'll use the stem seals to fix this forged engine and the HG on the stock engine
cheapest place i found was either £33 for 16 stem seals from dublin
http://www.micksgarage.co.uk/gasket...nissan/micra/micra/1992-2003/1.4-i-16v/15471/
or £30 for a whole gasket set off ebay
chose next day postage which bumps it all to £33 anyway
its a no brainer
i'll use the stem seals to fix this forged engine and the HG on the stock engine
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pollyp
Club Member
removed cover
oils already black
noted timing
set the piston to BDC. to wedge the valves i found some thin rope to stuff down the plug hole. using a tube thats slightly bigger bored than the rope to help guide it down without kinking
turn the crank till it resists. now the rope is wedged up securely against the valves by the piston
oils already black
noted timing
set the piston to BDC. to wedge the valves i found some thin rope to stuff down the plug hole. using a tube thats slightly bigger bored than the rope to help guide it down without kinking
turn the crank till it resists. now the rope is wedged up securely against the valves by the piston
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pollyp
Club Member
was looking at either getting a pair of 2nd hand 15" alloys upto £100 or ideally finding someone who sells single rota grids (to keep the same look and unspring weight) for the 595rsr.
most rota suppliers only sell a 4 set but i've managed to find on ebay a US seller who sells single rota grid alloys for approx £73 each plus post and tax and custom totaling prob from £200. need to find how much tax n custom it'll be before considering
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-ROTA-GR...&otn=3&po=LVI&ps=63&clkid=8282117444010439564
most rota suppliers only sell a 4 set but i've managed to find on ebay a US seller who sells single rota grid alloys for approx £73 each plus post and tax and custom totaling prob from £200. need to find how much tax n custom it'll be before considering
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-ROTA-GR...&otn=3&po=LVI&ps=63&clkid=8282117444010439564
