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The 1.3 Turbo Battle####

pollyp said:
hang in there chris. know how you feel, I've been through those emotions several times before when things go wrong but you just gotta keep on swimming forwards and diagnose the issue logically.

I had the same issue back in 2011 with the worn turbo seals n bearings.
started clear from stone cold and then goes steamy then misty smokey plus leaking oil behind the turbine bit

http://micra.org.uk/threads/pollymobiles-rebuild.35251/page-39#post-486647

normal turbine seals are like piston seals with a straight cut gap and gets worn with a bigger gap or starts to carbon up n stick.

I rebuilt it with new bearings and upgraded to a staggered/stepped turbine seal for a better seal especially with a decat, resolved the bad return pipe fitting and it never since leaked any oil or smoked and shaft is tight snug.

http://micra.org.uk/threads/pollymobiles-rebuild.35251/page-39#post-486823

so I'd suggest as guys said:
unplug the oil return,point into a container and check oil is flowing freely out the turbo (careful u don't run too low on oil :p), does it stop smoking while running a short while?
remove elbow n check for any oily stains in the turbine,
check the compressor outlet ain't leaking oily mist into the inlet,
open the butterfly throttle and check the inlet mani isn't flooded with oil from the PCV (slight oily dampness is norm),
remove the turbo mani and peak into the exhaust ports for any major oil stain drooling down the stems from worn stem seals,
fit a stock manifold and check if it stops smoking,
if all those are fine then the turbo prob needs a rebuild as a last resort
Click to expand...
Yeah we used sealent on the fitting to the sump we had no choice. It doesn't seem to be spitting oil in the elbow to manifold where the faces are no doubt not meeting correctly/true. Ta mate yeah I will get there just like you always do :) just really pissed I thought it was going well. It does explains the dirty inlet Mani as I mentioned before I'm the blog. I took a look at it and thought it was a bit odd. Yes I did think of the running a stock manifold to make sure its not the engine. BTW on idle my AFR reads 12 odd then 15 and back again slowly. You get a noticable engine tone change.

Right so I put it all back after freeing the return. No noticeable splatter on the cam cover. Didn't rev it so it may have been from that. I have noticed a smoke appearing from the ex Mani's turbo end may be a leak.

Left it be for a while. Still smoky. Not sure if water vapour at this point. What colour smoke is oil again? The AFR is up and down as said previously.

Why would I be getting oil in inlet Mani? Fromm the pcv? When engine is fresh and what not.

Can I run it without the cold feed from turbo in to the inlet Mani to avoid oil in. Would that effect the AFR?

Yeah I feared the removal of things would be a good way to check. Can I not unbolt the turbo from the manifold and move aside to check the engine is running fine? That would be also good go to check if the turbo is leaking oil no?

Thanks for all of your input. That goes for the rest of you too


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pollyp said:
why use sealant on the return line? tis asking for potential blockage trouble. should be just direct screw-on hydraulic fittings.

fluid will flow out through the path of least resistance. long as ur return pipe flows freely enough to allow the pool of oil to escape downwards to the sump without any restriction or built up pressure, it shouldn't leak much out the seals unless the seals are really worn.

doesn't make a difference in feed pressure whether its from the oil sensor or from the front grub screw cos its exactly the same feed route.
Click to expand...
As euno said we just did it for the sump fitting. The hydraulic fitting was left be. So we are good on that front.

How much restriction are we talking here?

BTW Paul you are running a t2 yeah. If the issue of rebuild kits comes in to scenario. Can you direct me to the kit you used. I would of thought they are all the same. Good job you are here :D

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there is a brass restrictor in the head feed gallery (@ the head gasket joint), so that the crank journals get priority (and all the cam feeds, tensioner etc get whats left over)
so the plug on the front of the head is already restricted, but a feed from the filter housing is unrestricted, and will starve the rest of the engine !
and your a/f/r,s should be closed looping at idle chris (swinging up and down)
 
frank said:
there is a brass restrictor in the head feed gallery (@ the head gasket joint), so that the crank journals get priority (and all the cam feeds, tensioner etc get whats left over)
so the plug on the front of the head is already restricted, but a feed from the filter housing is unrestricted, and will starve the rest of the engine !
and your a/f/r,s should be closed looping at idle chris (swinging up and down)
Click to expand...
See on that note I was going to say the engine seems to sound rather dry... Hmmm

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I still think you should swap cylinder heads with the old engine, you know thr grub screw comes out and that will give you the restrictor you need...
 
SirChris said:
Yeah we used sealent on the fitting to the sump we had no choice. It doesn't seem to be spitting oil in the elbow to manifold where the faces are no doubt not meeting correctly/true. Ta mate yeah I will get there just like you always do :) just really pissed I thought it was going well. It does explains the dirty inlet Mani as I mentioned before I'm the blog. I took a look at it and thought it was a bit odd. Yes I did think of the running a stock manifold to make sure its not the engine. BTW on idle my AFR reads 12 odd then 15 and back again slowly. You get a noticable engine tone change.

Right so I put it all back after freeing the return. No noticeable splatter on the cam cover. Didn't rev it so it may have been from that. I have noticed a smoke appearing from the ex Mani's turbo end may be a leak.

Left it be for a while. Still smoky. Not sure if water vapour at this point. What colour smoke is oil again? The AFR is up and down as said previously.

Why would I be getting oil in inlet Mani? Fromm the pcv? When engine is fresh and what not.

Can I run it without the cold feed from turbo in to the inlet Mani to avoid oil in. Would that effect the AFR?

Yeah I feared the removal of things would be a good way to check. Can I not unbolt the turbo from the manifold and move aside to check the engine is running fine? That would be also good go to check if the turbo is leaking oil no?

Thanks for all of your input. That goes for the rest of you too


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Click to expand...

yeah I know when the car misbehaves and it doesn't go to plan, ur blood boils n kick & curse urself :p

what management was it running? what MAF (stock or external MAF?) that swinging AFRs rather odd, maybe lazy O2?
I'd try hook some datascan to it to check all sensors working.

is this a used/bedded engine or rehoned new like mine?

hard to tell if it's water or oil vapour out the pipe cos it's dark, the pipes are all cold hence water in exhaust usually just condense until the pipes are all thoroughly hot from driving.

tis norm for abit of oil to form in the inlet mani cos any oil vapour mist in the crankcase goes up the front block breather (the mesh screen may condense most of the big molecules), goes through the PCV and straight into the high vacuum inlet mani during closed throttle.

when there's a huge amount of blowby pressurising the crank like a previous cracked ring, that oily mist has no chance of settling down and is forced out of any oriface including the open PCV into the mani and rocker breather.

u can un-plumb the turbo inlet pipes pre-MAF, as long as the MAF can meter whatever air actually enters the engine. if ur just using the stock MAF, then yeah u can just unhook the turbo pipes off. check the MAF wire for any oily/dirty contaminants to confirm if its coming from the turbo compressor.

if ur neighbours happy with it (or prob not but who cares :p)
yea u can unbolt and put the turbo to one side, elbow off, still hooked up to oil feed & return and with the engine running you'll be able to check if the turbine seals trickling oil out

rebuild kit & staggered seal I used is linked here
http://micra.org.uk/threads/pollymobiles-rebuild.35251/page-39#post-486757
 
frank said:
there is a brass restrictor in the head feed gallery (@ the head gasket joint), so that the crank journals get priority (and all the cam feeds, tensioner etc get whats left over)
so the plug on the front of the head is already restricted, but a feed from the filter housing is unrestricted, and will starve the rest of the engine !
and your a/f/r,s should be closed looping at idle chris (swinging up and down)
Click to expand...

ah yea totally forgot bout that restrictor built into the head
 
frank said:
there is a brass restrictor in the head feed gallery (@ the head gasket joint), so that the crank journals get priority (and all the cam feeds, tensioner etc get whats left over)
so the plug on the front of the head is already restricted, but a feed from the filter housing is unrestricted, and will starve the rest of the engine !
and your a/f/r,s should be closed looping at idle chris (swinging up and down)
Click to expand...

Experienced this also many moons ago and soon swapped back to the head feed.

The oil pressure maybe too high and forcing oil past the seals, have you checked inside the IC piping directly after the turbo for new oil marks?
 
frank said:
good point chris :) you may need a restrictor in the feed pipe (1mm for ballbearing turbo, and about 2mm for sleeve bearing type)
Click to expand...
Any science to this frank? Mine would be a 2mm yeah. Would you know how I could work out the correct fitting adapter restricter. I remember seeing it just needs enough to create a film of oil.


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Noddie said:
There was a bit when dry but never much smoke or anything, still lots of life in it. I got it refurbered professionally off brooney back in the day.
Click to expand...
Tonnes of life. No wear either. That's why I though seals :) soon noddie. Oh uni soon too. Will bring the car


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Stani1029 said:
Experienced this also many moons ago and soon swapped back to the head feed.

The oil pressure maybe too high and forcing oil past the seals, have you checked inside the IC piping directly after the turbo for new oil marks?
Click to expand...
Hey stani yeah I am thinking too much pressure too. I ever heard this much trickle through the sump drain before. Got a restricter coming hopefully that will be better. If not I will try to get the grub screw out.


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Maybe not the same but my landy had engine oil literally pouring from the exhaust, the crank breather was blocked which was pressurising the bottom end and raising the pressure of the oil drain, then the oil was being forced past the seals down the down pipe. I drained 5 litres in 8miles.
 
Noddie said:
Maybe not the same but my landy had engine oil literally pouring from the exhaust, the crank breather was blocked which was pressurising the bottom end and raising the pressure of the oil drain, then the oil was being forced past the seals down the down pipe. I drained 5 litres in 8miles.
Click to expand...
I will check the pcv and breather mate good shout.

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pollyp said:
yeah I know when the car misbehaves and it doesn't go to plan, ur blood boils n kick & curse urself :p

what management was it running? what MAF (stock or external MAF?) that swinging AFRs rather odd, maybe lazy O2?
I'd try hook some datascan to it to check all sensors working.

is this a used/bedded engine or rehoned new like mine?

hard to tell if it's water or oil vapour out the pipe cos it's dark, the pipes are all cold hence water in exhaust usually just condense until the pipes are all thoroughly hot from driving.

tis norm for abit of oil to form in the inlet mani cos any oil vapour mist in the crankcase goes up the front block breather (the mesh screen may condense most of the big molecules), goes through the PCV and straight into the high vacuum inlet mani during closed throttle.

when there's a huge amount of blowby pressurising the crank like a previous cracked ring, that oily mist has no chance of settling down and is forced out of any oriface including the open PCV into the mani and rocker breather.

u can un-plumb the turbo inlet pipes pre-MAF, as long as the MAF can meter whatever air actually enters the engine. if ur just using the stock MAF, then yeah u can just unhook the turbo pipes off. check the MAF wire for any oily/dirty contaminants to confirm if its coming from the turbo compressor.

if ur neighbours happy with it (or prob not but who cares :p)
yea u can unbolt and put the turbo to one side, elbow off, still hooked up to oil feed & return and with the engine running you'll be able to check if the turbine seals trickling oil out

rebuild kit & staggered seal I used is linkedhere
http://micra.org.uk/threads/pollymobiles-th rebuild.35251/page-39#post-486757
Click to expand...

Yeah the previous post with song sums it up tbh.

Running stock management to get through mot.

Stock maf.

Yeah I think I may leave it all until the restricter comes first. Get everything else sorted whilst I wait. No point ripping it all off if a simple restricter fixes it eh. Will take the elbow off though. Actually no. Man up chris. Get it off. Lol may have to go for the seal up grade.

Paul do you know the oil pressure which come out the rear? Want to calculate if a 1mm is sufficient. @frank too. The brass restricter on the heads is 1-2 mm? Will go and check in a bit. Just checked it's 2 mm. And that is the suggested amount for the whole head n gubbins. So really my thoughts are that 1mm restricter should be fine considering that it shared the heads 2mm with everything else?


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Noddie said:
What exactly have you changed from the previous setup that i made? I seemed to work fine then...
Click to expand...
Keep up noddie :D I changed he turbo feed to the rear of he engine. Where the oil pressure sensor is. A more appropriate place of I can get the restriction right. O don't starve any other parts of the engine that way no?

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SirChris said:
Yeah the previous post with song sums it up tbh.

Running stock management to get through mot.

Stock maf.

Yeah I think I may leave it all until the restricter comes first. Get everything else sorted whilst I wait. No point ripping it all off if a simple restricter fixes it eh. Will take the elbow off though. Actually no. Man up chris. Get it off. Lol may have to go for the seal up grade.

Paul do you know the oil pressure which come out the rear? Want to calculate if a 1mm is sufficient. @frank too. The brass restricter on the heads is 1-2 mm? Will go and check in a bit. Just checked it's 2 mm. And that is the suggested amount for the whole head n gubbins. So really my thoughts are that 1mm restricter should be fine considering that it shared the heads 2mm with everything else?


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Click to expand...

stock ecu, it should be using the O2 closed loop to maintain 14.7 under low loads.
either hook diagnostics to read the sensors or try the papercip-diagnostic port trick (diag mode I) then start & hold warm engine to 2k (diag mode II) to check if O2 responds fast enough (eng light should flash twice a sec)

I'd say first try getting that grub screw out cos thats the best feed source for turbo:

  • good quality hard allen key socket - I find those L-allen keys too soft n stack - the tighter fitting tool the better,
  • bolt extractor,
  • dremel slot & impact driver etc)

else, then try the restrictor at the oil sensor feed.

else, then remove elbow n check for wetness.

else, then remove the turbo and seperate the turbine housing off the core n assess if oil really is leaking past the rear seal n caking on.

if u can find a good working replacement turbo cheaper than the rebuild kit and maybe new shaft if worn, then it might be a quicker option.

if the rebuild kit is cheaper, it may be worth rebuilding it, considering the shaft ain't too worn too. but it is a precision patience job and requires some special tools (modded or brought) to remove those tiny tiny c-clips. documented my experience in the blog link.

dunno what the oil pressure is cos ain't got an oil gauge.
 
Stani1029 said:
Chris if you can get a blow torch and knock in a bigger allen key youll get it out easy
Click to expand...
Tried it mate even got bigger bit hammered in there and it just got mashed up when hammered in there.

I am curious to get the correct restricter in there tbh. Because then I would be less likely to starve the head.


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SirChris said:
Tried it mate even got bigger bit hammered in there and it just got mashed up when hammered in there.

I am curious to get the correct restricter in there tbh. Because then I would be less likely to starve the head.


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Click to expand...

last resort if all removal methods above fails could be to carefully drill it out if ur never gonna need that grub?
being careful not to push any of the swarf deeper into that feed hole, pick it out with a thin stick.
 
try dremelling a slot across the petruding grub face and fit a flathead impact driver on it.
if it rounds, try sticking a pointy punch at the corner of the grub and shock it loose with the hammer n punch
 
the size of restrictor will depend on what bore pipe you have really chris, (and the length of it), mine is a skinny ped braided brakepipe of about 2mm bore so does,nt need a restrictor
 
frank said:
the size of restrictor will depend on what bore pipe you have really chris, (and the length of it), mine is a skinny ped braided brakepipe of about 2mm bore so does,nt need a restrictor
Click to expand...
Bore is about 5mm odd about a metre in length. Ed at fusion said as its journal bearing it is likely capable of this feed. Will try to get the grub out then. Piss.

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Noddie said:
you're a fiddler chris :)
Im am slightly behind, its hard to keep up with your thread and have a life at the same time!! ;)
check PDV and crank vents first imo.
Click to expand...
Done and done. Still pushing out oil. Thinking about it the turbo shaft is not spinning as freely as I remember it doing so before. Got destructors coming anyway worth a shot. Try that if it stops then I will concentrate getting he grub out as we know that feed is good to go.

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pollyp said:
try dremelling a slot across the petruding grub face and fit a flathead impact driver on it.
if it rounds, try sticking a pointy punch at the corner of the grub and shock it loose with the hammer n punch
Click to expand...
Yeah hammer and punch sounds clever Bob the car guy taught me that lol

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Noddie said:
An impact gun does the trick on those. should have brought it down to me, could have done it in 5 mins... (too late now i guess unless we could bash a bigger alan key in there).
Click to expand...
Big ass drive friend lol. Plus no not or tax

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SirChris said:
Done and done. Still pushing out oil. Thinking about it the turbo shaft is not spinning as freely as I remember it doing so before. Got destructors coming anyway worth a shot. Try that if it stops then I will concentrate getting he grub out as we know that feed is good to go.

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Click to expand...
my TD04 had been left out in the rain for a month when i bought it chris, and it took a few spins around the block before the shaft would spin freely.
and i would,nt try to chisel that plug out personally, just a hard whack with a hammer and then a spline bit hammered in will sort it :)
 
Senior impact driver has bestowed the godly removal of grub screw. Plus on massively belted on star bit frank lol

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@noddie arnt we a fiddlers here :D I canI help it. I just want to make things pretty and make a better setup... Just in the process I make it worse lol.

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