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Skinners Sprint Micra

Managed to start doing an edit from last weeks drag racing:

One of my quicker runs, hooked up well off the line, mainly due to the 48r's being warm. They worked far better after back to back runs warming up on the long return road!

 
Here's the first run off the day against an AX sporting a 1.6 saxo motor. Recon id have been level pegging had I not span up the start :p

Used rally slics for next time maybe ;)

 
frank said:
they,re near to dougy paul :) have you checked what sort of spark curve you have atm ? (usb lead or ecutalk etc)
Click to expand...

I havn't yet Frank tbh, (putting the cart before the horse as normal) i've got a few hours free so il have a play the weekend with the free software you kindly linked me to :)

Im just going off the fact the car pulls back in 4th & 5th tbh
 
you just need to log the advance curve while driving it eh paul :), i think it should have loads of advance @ light throttle @ cruise (40deg +), and it should pull timing (retard) @ high load (full throttle/2k to 4k rpm)
 
Well guys finally I've got a bit of data from an Ecu, my first infact! :)

Here are the rpm/ignition advance (first thing to tweaks the dizzy as its 1 degree out on idle)

1000rpm. 16deg
1500rpm. 26deg
2000rpm. 31deg
2500rpm. 37deg
3000rpm. 39deg
3500rpm. 40deg
4000rpm. 41deg
4500rpm. 41deg
5000rpm. 41deg
5500rpm. 42deg
6000rpm. 42deg
6500rpm. 42deg

Any feedback would be very much appreciated :)
 
looks bang-on to me paul :) you are compromising about 10hp without any load correction tho (like vacuum advance, but more sophisticated )
paul (polly) posted his spark maps up to compare yours with eh
 
frank said:
looks bang-on to me paul :) you are compromising about 10hp without any load correction tho (like vacuum advance, but more sophisticated )
paul (polly) posted his spark maps up to compare yours with eh
Click to expand...

Thanks Frank il have a good look through Paul's maps!

10bhp is a lot to be loosing on such a little engine, is its TPS that gives the Ecu the load?

Think it's time for some mapable ignition!
 
Skinner_87 said:
Well guys finally I've got a bit of data from an Ecu, my first infact! :)

Here are the rpm/ignition advance (first thing to tweaks the dizzy as its 1 degree out on idle)

1000rpm. 16deg
1500rpm. 26deg
2000rpm. 31deg
2500rpm. 37deg
3000rpm. 39deg
3500rpm. 40deg
4000rpm. 41deg
4500rpm. 41deg
5000rpm. 41deg
5500rpm. 42deg
6000rpm. 42deg
6500rpm. 42deg

Any feedback would be very much appreciated :)
Click to expand...
also, bear in mind those are just the figures programmed into the ecu paul :) the "true" figures will depend on where you set the dizzy eh
 
Skinner_87 said:
Thanks Frank il have a good look through Paul's maps!

10bhp is a lot to be loosing on such a little engine, is its TPS that gives the Ecu the load?

Think it's time for some mapable ignition!
Click to expand...

bear in mind that my dizzy was originally offset afew deg before the remap (something was wrong with the stock setup at the very beginning)
so I think the turbo timing map on boost is offset the actual timing to compensate. tis why I quoted to baquette that using my turbo map is at their own risk and only as a reference cos not one turbo setup will run exactly the same.
 
frank said:
and if you could get those carbs to idle @ 650 paul :) i think it would probably read about 5 deg
Click to expand...

That shouldnt be a problem Frank i left the idle control on the carbs so thats easy enough... :)

Thanks for the links and info mate always useful stuff.

I see what you mean i might get the timing gun out and reset the timing to 15deg at 850 as a starting point.

Im wondering if i can rig up the old TPS of the micra TB some how to open in conjunction with the carbs butterflys opening see if it affects the ignition.
 
Hmmm, yeah, I would want to give the ecu a load signal. Is there a way you could fit the MAF back on? Not sure if the micra ecu mays much attention to the TPS (Ed would know). Otherwise MAP is an easy option but make sure the voltage range is similar to our MAF output. It's basically a voltage of between about 0.5v - 4.5v as far as I know.
I would have thought the ecu is having a bit of a hard time at the moment.
 
something like this may do it
the signal wire goes to the shielded little white wire for the MAF sensor, and the 5V needs to go to the W/G wire (I think). It may be worth making sure that the W/G is 5V not 12V though as im not sure. There are other 5V wires you could use if not.
The other thing to make sure is the voltage changes the right way. you need low volts at low load and high volts at high load as far as i know. (frank will no doubt have the answer).
Obviousely a MAP sensor wont give you a perfect reading because the voltage to load calibration is different. but its better than nothing eh :)
 
a t/p/s would be easy to rig up eh, and praps mount the maf on only 1 cylinder, but you would need some trial and error in sizing the venturi around the maf, to give the same signal @ a 1/4 of the airflow.
it seems daft to spend £300 on a spark only ecu for n/a personally, quad t/b and full stand-alone ftw paul :cool:
 
frank said:
a t/p/s would be easy to rig up eh, and praps mount the maf on only 1 cylinder, but you would need some trial and error in sizing the venturi around the maf, to give the same signal @ a 1/4 of the airflow.
it seems daft to spend £300 on a spark only ecu for n/a personally, quad t/b and full stand-alone ftw paul :cool:
Click to expand...

gotta agree, T/B's and standalone should see you with shed loads more power by the sounds.

but otherwise....as frank says, you may want to connect both a load sensor and the tps. i think i would go map not maf though for the airflow reasons above
 
i would have thought maf would be more suitable for n/a personally, because the vacuum signal is,nt linear to the load surely ? (you can have zero vacuum @ wot for most of the rev/power range eh)
some basic tps and 1 cylinder maf input will be far better in terms of sparkmap than just disconnecting them, but a 1 cyl maf signal will be very pulsed at low rpm tho
 
Thanks for the info here guys, its all new to me but im hoping to be a quick learner! :)

I'd love to sort some ITB's especially to get the most of the new motor once its together, would be a waste not to get the most from it. The only thing holding me back is the tuning side. Im talking with a few local guys at the moment about who can tune what aftermarket software as the only option at the minute is to trailer the car across it would be around £700 - £800 including a dyno day.

Depending what i can get locally will probably govern the next move.

Cheaper home brew option in the mean time = refine the fueling & rig up a MAF & TPS setup.. Different airbox with one large cone filter with an SR20 MAF? Swop the current carbs for a later model with TPS already fitted & wire that in. (so long as the voltage readings are compatible with the micras

As you say Frank id feel hard of paying £300 for ignition when that would be going towards fuel injection / ITB's.... Im watching L_jonez to see how he gets on with his ITB / mini setup :)
 
h701micra said:
Wouldnt having a plenum made up be beneficial?
Constant reading even at low rpm? No pulsing :)
Click to expand...
a plenum defeats the object of quads to some extent eh :)
you could rig a t/p/s to the throttle cable or mech paul, or just an on/off setup @ wot, and you would probably be able to self map :) from the live data link you have
 
Anything other than either mapped ignition, (if one is sticking with carbs), or upgrading to EFI is going to involve taking backwards steps and is likely to introduce further compromises.

For a car that will spend most of it's time at WOT, the gains will have to be worth it in any respect. Daily drivers where part throttle and transient conditions play a significant part are a different story. Currently you're as good as the default spark map and thus limited by max output at any given point, (usually an average since DET is not an issue).

Stuff is still on ice, as discussed Paul. None of it is going to go anywhere ;)
 
Low Rider said:
For a car that will spend most of it's time at WOT, the gains will have to be worth it in any respect. Daily drivers where part throttle and transient conditions play a significant part are a different story. Currently you're as good as the default spark map and thus limited by max output at any given point, (usually an average since DET is not an issue).
Click to expand...
but with no vacuum advance, paul is having to run a lot of retard throughout tho dave.
if the map was correct for the WOT that he is running most of the time, then it would pink like mad when he was accelerating through the gears :)
 
frank said:
but with no vacuum advance, paul is having to run a lot of retard throughout tho dave.
if the map was correct for the WOT that he is running most of the time, then it would pink like mad when he was accelerating through the gears :)
Click to expand...

Essentially yes. No chance of knock though :p

What I ment was, whatever the options to go for is, it would have to be done right to jusfity the cost and a bandaid solution is not likely to be the best option.
 
I spoke about this with a member recently and I think the best way to get some load would be to use a map sensor that produces readings close to the maf. TPS is easy enough.
 
frank said:
i would have thought maf would be more suitable for n/a personally, because the vacuum signal is,nt linear to the load surely ? (you can have zero vacuum @ wot for most of the rev/power range eh)
some basic tps and 1 cylinder maf input will be far better in terms of sparkmap than just disconnecting them, but a 1 cyl maf signal will be very pulsed at low rpm tho
Click to expand...
I have seen logs of both from the same session and they are surprisingly similar.
 
have you checked with a strobe yet paul ?
because if you,re running at around 0 deg base timing @ 650rpm, then your top-end/wot will be about 10hp down :)
 
frank said:
have you checked with a strobe yet paul ?
because if you,re running at around 0 deg base timing @ 650rpm, then your top-end/wot will be about 10hp down :)
Click to expand...

I haven't yet Frank though i will tonight! :)

It was set up as per the Haynes at 15deg on idle so far as i remember Frank. Does this mean it need retarding back to give the best compromise at WOT?
 
frank said:
i,ll do a strobe vid tonight paul, to try and show the amount of retard when you blip the throttle :)
Click to expand...

Cheers Frank appreciate your help with this.

I guess the ECU only sees the RPM so when i boot it at high speed, come off the throttle & back on again it doesnt see the difference between that & accelerating from a stop at idle so the ignition is way out when accelerating from lift.

A few tweeks to improve anything in the mean time would be great.

I've set my mind to the next setup now.. good by carbs & hello ITB / Aftermarket Management... if im going to do it i may as well do it properly & learn how this all works at the same time :)
 
Skinner_87 said:
Cheers Frank appreciate your help with this.

I guess the ECU only sees the RPM so when i boot it at high speed, come off the throttle & back on again it doesnt see the difference between that & accelerating from a stop at idle so the ignition is way out when accelerating from lift.

A few tweeks to improve anything in the mean time would be great.

I've set my mind to the next setup now.. good by carbs & hello ITB / Aftermarket Management... if im going to do it i may as well do it properly & learn how this all works at the same time :)
Click to expand...
Thats what I'm doing gsxr ITB's and microsquirt, the ecu comes in around £300
 
Skinner_87 said:
I've set my mind to the next setup now.. good by carbs & hello ITB / Aftermarket Management... if im going to do it i may as well do it properly & learn how this all works at the same time :)
Click to expand...

ah the familiar sound of the bank account emptying...lol. Been there and couldn't afford to buy the t-shirt. :D
 
this one shows the timing being pulled as i rev it harder paul, the paintmark darts to the left when gently revved, and stays pretty much at the base level when ragged eh.
but bear in mind mine is nistune-d tho eh (the lower turbo map here http://www.micra.org.uk/threads/apexi-s-afc.56206/ ) where the right hand (high load) columns are held at little or no advance, and the left hand column (off boost) has the normal advance curve.
yours should be more like the upper (n/a) map on that link eh :)

 
frank said:
this one shows the timing being pulled as i rev it harder paul, the paintmark darts to the left when gently revved, and stays pretty much at the base level when ragged eh.
but bear in mind mine is nistune-d tho eh (the lower turbo map here http://www.micra.org.uk/threads/apexi-s-afc.56206/ ) where the right hand (high load) columns are held at little or no advance, and the left hand column (off boost) has the normal advance curve.
yours should be more like the upper (n/a) map on that link eh :)
Click to expand...

Thanks very much Frank, il ave to get a vid of mine up with the timing gun on for comparison, i only have the half version of datascan at the minute so something i can do a proper graph is needed.
 

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