frank
Club Member
the whole kit i meant mate
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The 1.3 Turbo Battle####
- Thread starter SirChris
- Start date
i saw these pictures of upgraded piston heads and clutch kit. i tho it will be faster than your last turbo build.
frank
Club Member
impressive
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SirChris
Educated Bodger
Right it says 10 odd, so 10-11Kgimpressive
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SirChris
Educated Bodger
Ohh I see, no I will be seeing how far I can go with standard internals, but with a metal H/G
frank
Club Member
roughly stock weight then
i find throttle response/spool-up is very critical on a turbo build personally chris
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SirChris
Educated Bodger
So that translates in to option a) lighten it b) leave it beroughly stock weight then
See I have been thinking about this loads of recent regarding flywheel weight, light or heavy? Heavy must have advantages with gear changes when you are bashing the limiter?
wouldnt they put me up agains big boy cars... i dont want to play with big boy cars
RWYB is just a free for all, you'll just be next to whoever you're next to in the queue and you'll be surprised what you can stuff in a turbo k11.
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SirChris
Educated Bodger
oh thats not as scary then.. thats okay then. will have to have a go.
pork
Club Member
I'm game for that too!
Did plan to take mine to the first rwyb if the year, but I broke it
When's the msc day thing happening?
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SirChris
Educated Bodger
What's this msc day thing I don't know eitherI'm game for that too!
Did plan to take mine to the first rwyb if the year, but I broke it
When's the msc day thing happening?
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pollyp
Club Member
luvely pics
my 200mm full-face organic helix clutch handles the 160ftlb 160bhp on track no prob at all nowadays, and that's only using 50% of the surface cos my flywheel was machined concave.
so 150ftlb should be a pieceapizz.
the ceramic paddles are a very hard tough material so will hardly wear but it will indeed chew through the softer steel flywheel/PP especially when it's abused on a drag strip or track
http://micra.org.uk/threads/pollymobiles-rebuild.35251/page-50#post-509270
suppose the paddle arrangement promotes a harder high-pressure bite but during traffic jams it tends to shudder/chatter during slippage.
I used to have a thin ultra-light JUN flywheel and although it reduced the time for the rpm to blip during heel toe and for the rpm to drop fast during up shifts, it had a very limited heat-soak, heat-sink capacity. so coupled with a small-area paddle clutch it was more likely to overheat quickly and glaze permanently under intense stress.
with the 8kg stock flywheel here I just get used to waiting for the fly to gradually slow down during upshifting.
my 200mm full-face organic helix clutch handles the 160ftlb 160bhp on track no prob at all nowadays, and that's only using 50% of the surface cos my flywheel was machined concave.
so 150ftlb should be a pieceapizz.
the ceramic paddles are a very hard tough material so will hardly wear but it will indeed chew through the softer steel flywheel/PP especially when it's abused on a drag strip or track
http://micra.org.uk/threads/pollymobiles-rebuild.35251/page-50#post-509270
suppose the paddle arrangement promotes a harder high-pressure bite but during traffic jams it tends to shudder/chatter during slippage.
I used to have a thin ultra-light JUN flywheel and although it reduced the time for the rpm to blip during heel toe and for the rpm to drop fast during up shifts, it had a very limited heat-soak, heat-sink capacity. so coupled with a small-area paddle clutch it was more likely to overheat quickly and glaze permanently under intense stress.
with the 8kg stock flywheel here I just get used to waiting for the fly to gradually slow down during upshifting.
pork
Club Member
If not......make one,
Throw some Radials on the front, you'll be fine
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SirChris
Educated Bodger
Ta man.luvely pics
my 200mm full-face organic helix clutch handles the 160ftlb 160bhp on track no prob at all nowadays, and that's only using 50% of the surface cos my flywheel was machined concave.
so 150ftlb should be a pieceapizz.
the ceramic paddles are a very hard tough material so will hardly wear but it will indeed chew through the softer steel flywheel/PP especially when it's abused on a drag strip or track
http://micra.org.uk/threads/pollymobiles-rebuild.35251/page-50#post-509270
suppose the paddle arrangement promotes a harder high-pressure bite but during traffic jams it tends to shudder/chatter during slippage.
I used to have a thin ultra-light JUN flywheel and although it reduced the time for the rpm to blip during heel toe and for the rpm to drop fast during up shifts, it had a very limited heat-soak, heat-sink capacity. so coupled with a small-area paddle clutch it was more likely to overheat quickly and glaze permanently under intense stress.
with the 8kg stock flywheel here I just get used to waiting for the fly to gradually slow down during upshifting.
See I get this a lot. I have a clutch capable of 170ft/lb I do believe. Its fine when cold but once I really start thrashing the car... That's it.. Bye bye clutch. Full contact on flywheel no issues. I think its just driving style.
Okay. Well I think I may just leave it like it. Learn how to drive it as it is.
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SirChris
Educated Bodger
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SirChris
Educated Bodger
This trueI imagine your walls are like a custard cream...without the filling
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SirChris
Educated Bodger
I can't do anything till after uniIf not......make one,
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I'd say they are suited to a certain purpose. When things go wrong or do not meet expectations it's either down to a lack of information/understanding and/or misuse. For racing conditions where you only make one or two starts, (off the line and pit stops), they're great. For start/stop traffic situations and general driving, they are less suitable.
I am sure the driving style of the other chap is why that clutch didn't measure up to expectations and was swapped out for an alternative.
Me personally, I will send my 68-110R off to Helix to be re-sprung to a 68-110G, so I can use a full face organic plate instead. It will handle the same torque but be much more suited to street conditions and treat the flywheel and clutch cover plate better.
As Paul said, light flywheels pose the disadvantage of a reduced thermal capacity, which can be a major downside when using a paddle clutch, especially on the street. Everyone is different, but I find in general a slightly heavier flywheel offers more advantages than disadvantages on a street driven motor, (within sensible limitations).
Bottom line, you have a very nice setup there that wont let you down and will ensure 100% to the road at all times. Pedal effort is increased but, from experience, it's perfectly manageable
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SirChris
Educated Bodger
Yes I do agree. Even with my three piece I noticed the suitability to certain scenarios.I'd say they are suited to a certain purpose. When things go wrong or do not meet expectations it's either down to a lack of information/understanding and/or misuse. For racing conditions where you only make one or two starts, (off the line and pit stops), they're great. For start/stop traffic situations and general driving, they are less suitable.
I am sure the driving style of the other chap is why that clutch didn't measure up to expectations and was swapped out for an alternative.
Me personally, I will send my 68-110R off to Helix to be re-sprung to a 68-110G, so I can use a full face organic plate instead. It will handle the same torque but be much more suited to street conditions and treat the flywheel and clutch cover plate better.
As Paul said, light flywheels pose the disadvantage of a reduced thermal capacity, which can be a major downside when using a paddle clutch, especially on the street. Everyone is different, but I find in general a slightly heavier flywheel offers more advantages than disadvantages on a street driven motor, (within sensible limitations).
Bottom line, you have a very nice setup there that wont let you down and will ensure 100% to the road at all times. Pedal effort is increased but, from experience, it's perfectly manageable
I did try and put two and two together with why this was removed from robs car. Wheel Spinny action and abuse would not see the result Desired no doubt... Being that it would have no doubt been pushing the torque limit of this clutch setup as is.
I am sat here thinking that my power levels will never match that, but I don't like messing about. Would I be better doing what you plan on doing. If the factors are health of flywheel/cover vs street use vs power.
Health of flywheel/cover I am concerned about. Are we talking about huge amounts eaten in a friction plate lifetime? Would I be able to just drop an organic in its place after the ceramatallic has been worn through. I have a machined stock flywheel, so no special stuff there.
Suitable for street. Are we just looking at comfort? Ease of driving? Or are we talking about the more stop and starts which translates in belting it off the line at traffic lights for whatever reason you may do so and then repeating, would it heat the clutch up beyond safe and useable conditions or cause glazing. If it is because it jerks around a lot. I had a three paddle and preferred it to any day car I have had.
Power capabilities I am at the peak at the moment. I would be spending more to get thongs changed over.
So looking at it. Power I am good as we speak = 1 no. It might make the car jerk around, no bothered, unless I got street driving criteria wrong = 2 no. Flywheel health = no idea.
2 = no
1= maybe
Thinking about it. My other ceramatallic when I had it was not all that bad really.
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SirChris
Educated Bodger
I do like the daily and the way the flywheel works with me when changing gears and shifting. I prefer the heavier flywheel in the daily as I drag the engine to the desired rpm if that makes sense. We shall see I suppose if I prefer one to the other when it is on.
Re he bottom line. Why thank you. I feel I have defiantly made the correct purchase. Yes the pedal will be a laugh. Need to get the correct release bearing before it can go on. Matt rung me up when I left to tell me here is a better suited one to go on it.
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Re he bottom line. Why thank you. I feel I have defiantly made the correct purchase. Yes the pedal will be a laugh. Need to get the correct release bearing before it can go on. Matt rung me up when I left to tell me here is a better suited one to go on it.
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One of those NSS statements but a paddle clutch will wear the flywheel more than an organic plate. The effect on wear increases as the number of paddles is decreased.
Unless you're planning on exceeding 215lb/ft, the 68-110R cover you have will more than suffice with an organic plate. 68-110G not required.
If you're not bothered about drivability, try what you've got and see how it is. Junctions are fun though and it'll be plenty more snatchy than stock
Unless you're planning on exceeding 215lb/ft, the 68-110R cover you have will more than suffice with an organic plate. 68-110G not required.
If you're not bothered about drivability, try what you've got and see how it is. Junctions are fun though and it'll be plenty more snatchy than stock
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SirChris
Educated Bodger
Well I never knew! NSS only counts if you are well versed. Not fairOne of those NSS statements but a paddle clutch will wear the flywheel more than an organic plate. The effect on wear increases as the number of paddles is decreased.
Unless you're planning on exceeding 215lb/ft, the 68-110R cover you have will more than suffice with an organic plate. 68-110G not required.
If you're not bothered about drivability, try what you've got and see how it is. Junctions are fun though and it'll be plenty more snatchy than stock
I would have through it would be the other way round? Why is that then? Does the organic wear down as opposed to the metal. Is ceramattalic more versatile than the steel flywheel/plate?Yes I think I shall. Sorry for all the worried questions I like to know I am not choosing the completely stupid option.
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pollyp
Club Member
Surface Prep
When fitting a new perfectly flat clutch disc, it's always best to get the flywheel resurfaced perfectly flat too to have the best chance of achieving maximum contact & friction.
If the disc has already been worn against the flywheel before, the ripples of the two faces are probably now matched and best to just give it a clean.
When I swapped from stock clutch to new paddle clutch, my error was I didn't resurface the fly, so the new flat paddle clutch was trying to work on a terribly rippled flywheel surface which reduced contact area, friction, so it began to slip.
also intentionally slipping the clutch at santapod drag strip was the final nail which glazed it badly.
Flywheel mass
Heavier fly provides more smoothing inertia during clutch slippage.
This reduces the juddering cos the inertia is keeping the crank spinning rather than bogging the revs up/down, and provides more initial torque when the clutch bites cos all that potential inertia energy can be instantly transferred straight through the drivetrain rather than waiting for the engines powerband to catch up.
Disadvantage is slower gear changes and rev-matching cos ur waiting for the spinning crank mass to slow down or speed up before engaging to maintain a smooth torque delivery through the drivetrain/tyres to reduce mechanical wear and prevent loss of traction.
Thermal capacity
Whenever a clutch or brake system slips under applied pressure, it converts the components kinetic energy into heat. Friction material has a maximum operating temperature before it starts to degrade/melt and loses co-efficiency of friction. The flywheel & clutch has to dissipate this heat to stay within this operating window. think of em as CPU heatsinks.
A large heavy fly has a higher heat latency to soak/store up the burst of heat and larger surface area to dissipate the heat via convection, conduction, radiation. so they can withstand more abuse for longer (I wonder what if flywheels where also vented/grooved/drilled like brake discs?)
A lighter thinner has a limited capacity to withstand clutch slip abuse before things get too hot very quickly and degrades.
Clutch engagement
Paddle clutches provide a fastest engaging and max amount of clutch friction for a given diameter by both reducing surface area to increase surface pressure for a given clamping force and creating a very hard sharp leading edge using ceramic material to literally "bite/dig" into the soft metal flywheel/PP. This creates an aggressive fully on/off juddering engagement.
For racing applications this is a minor sacrifice cos clutch slippage is only very briefly engaged for leaving pits, full power standing launches and racing speed gear shifts.
On public roads however, you'll be constantly and slowly slipping the clutch very frequently due to junctions and maintaining a small gap during slow congestion.
although the aggressive juddering engagement is funny at first, it will eventually be an annoying inconvenience during traffic.
Organic full-face clutches have a far wider progressive range of engagement between on/off and the choice of clutch material can influence it's performance and wear, much like brake pads.
Wear
The ceramic paddle clutches are harder than the steel flywheel/PP to maintain their sharp biting edge, so the flywheel will wear more quickly than the clutch disc. cost of resurfacing and/or replacing multiple flywheels/PP over a timescale could end up higher than the cost of the paddle clutch.
Organic clutches are softer than the flywheel so the clutch disc will wear out before the metal flywheel. the larger amount of clutch material contacting the surface means it'll wear alot slower in comparison to a paddle clutch tearing the metal flywheel away.
Running cost (£ per year) of replacing multiple organic clutch discs over the serviceable life of a flywheel is prob much cheaper than replacing multiple flywheels over the serviceable life of a paddle clutch.
When fitting a new perfectly flat clutch disc, it's always best to get the flywheel resurfaced perfectly flat too to have the best chance of achieving maximum contact & friction.
If the disc has already been worn against the flywheel before, the ripples of the two faces are probably now matched and best to just give it a clean.
When I swapped from stock clutch to new paddle clutch, my error was I didn't resurface the fly, so the new flat paddle clutch was trying to work on a terribly rippled flywheel surface which reduced contact area, friction, so it began to slip.
also intentionally slipping the clutch at santapod drag strip was the final nail which glazed it badly.
Flywheel mass
Heavier fly provides more smoothing inertia during clutch slippage.
This reduces the juddering cos the inertia is keeping the crank spinning rather than bogging the revs up/down, and provides more initial torque when the clutch bites cos all that potential inertia energy can be instantly transferred straight through the drivetrain rather than waiting for the engines powerband to catch up.
Disadvantage is slower gear changes and rev-matching cos ur waiting for the spinning crank mass to slow down or speed up before engaging to maintain a smooth torque delivery through the drivetrain/tyres to reduce mechanical wear and prevent loss of traction.
Thermal capacity
Whenever a clutch or brake system slips under applied pressure, it converts the components kinetic energy into heat. Friction material has a maximum operating temperature before it starts to degrade/melt and loses co-efficiency of friction. The flywheel & clutch has to dissipate this heat to stay within this operating window. think of em as CPU heatsinks.
A large heavy fly has a higher heat latency to soak/store up the burst of heat and larger surface area to dissipate the heat via convection, conduction, radiation. so they can withstand more abuse for longer (I wonder what if flywheels where also vented/grooved/drilled like brake discs?)
A lighter thinner has a limited capacity to withstand clutch slip abuse before things get too hot very quickly and degrades.
Clutch engagement
Paddle clutches provide a fastest engaging and max amount of clutch friction for a given diameter by both reducing surface area to increase surface pressure for a given clamping force and creating a very hard sharp leading edge using ceramic material to literally "bite/dig" into the soft metal flywheel/PP. This creates an aggressive fully on/off juddering engagement.
For racing applications this is a minor sacrifice cos clutch slippage is only very briefly engaged for leaving pits, full power standing launches and racing speed gear shifts.
On public roads however, you'll be constantly and slowly slipping the clutch very frequently due to junctions and maintaining a small gap during slow congestion.
although the aggressive juddering engagement is funny at first, it will eventually be an annoying inconvenience during traffic.
Organic full-face clutches have a far wider progressive range of engagement between on/off and the choice of clutch material can influence it's performance and wear, much like brake pads.
Wear
The ceramic paddle clutches are harder than the steel flywheel/PP to maintain their sharp biting edge, so the flywheel will wear more quickly than the clutch disc. cost of resurfacing and/or replacing multiple flywheels/PP over a timescale could end up higher than the cost of the paddle clutch.
Organic clutches are softer than the flywheel so the clutch disc will wear out before the metal flywheel. the larger amount of clutch material contacting the surface means it'll wear alot slower in comparison to a paddle clutch tearing the metal flywheel away.
Running cost (£ per year) of replacing multiple organic clutch discs over the serviceable life of a flywheel is prob much cheaper than replacing multiple flywheels over the serviceable life of a paddle clutch.
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