nismo stuff = win.
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Seb black 1.3 Stars Cup
- Thread starter Seb_
- Start date
OP
OP
No update for a while but the car is still going strong.
Using it more and more daily, and during week end trips.
I've just booked a track session early march, and then a long trip through France to take the ferry in Toulon.
I'm planning to buy new tyres, and I've also bought a few japanese goods:
Brand new Nismo anti roll bar kit still, got to find some bushes (R / 18 mm, F / 25 mm) looks like they're not supplied !
Nismo clutch cover and disk (disk seems to be almost worn, seller said there were only 7.5mm left)
Nismo front strut brace that I will repaint in black (pink wtf?)
March Nismo booklet, I've never seen this one before
I still have to fit the Nismo backbox I bought last year!
Using it more and more daily, and during week end trips.
I've just booked a track session early march, and then a long trip through France to take the ferry in Toulon.
I'm planning to buy new tyres, and I've also bought a few japanese goods:
Brand new Nismo anti roll bar kit still, got to find some bushes (R / 18 mm, F / 25 mm) looks like they're not supplied !
Nismo clutch cover and disk (disk seems to be almost worn, seller said there were only 7.5mm left)
Nismo front strut brace that I will repaint in black (pink wtf?)
March Nismo booklet, I've never seen this one before
I still have to fit the Nismo backbox I bought last year!
Nice stuff mate, I like the arbs, they should make some difference, is maybe get another clutch, a lot if work to put a worn one in?
OP
OP
I tried to stick to your advices Dave
Tyres + ARBs + strut brace: Handling first ! About the clutch disk I dont know for now, I will see it's condition when it arrives.
Also trying to source some of the brake pads you talked about.
If the are both replaced by thicker ones the over steer under steer will remain neutral, just a bit stiffer eh?
For his new ARBs the front is almost 4 times stiffer though! (assuming same length which the pretty much are).
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Bloody hell!! I'm just doubling up on rear arb hto create some understeer, see how it handles :-0
think my last post may have been a bit ambiguous, fixed it
h701micra
Deactivated Account
Stiffer ones even when upped evenly doesn't increase under/over steer neutrallly.
You'd have to soften springs to keep it neutral. Front should always be less than the rear on fwd setups
Its all about roll resistances
You'll get to a point where it'll be too stiff on the front and it'll understeer regardless.. then you'll have to start altering the weight of the front
Doubling up rear ARB induces oversteer not understeer. As you've not altered front roll resistance or turn in its almost like tightening/locking a diff on rwd car
You'd have to soften springs to keep it neutral. Front should always be less than the rear on fwd setups
Its all about roll resistances
You'll get to a point where it'll be too stiff on the front and it'll understeer regardless.. then you'll have to start altering the weight of the front
Doubling up rear ARB induces oversteer not understeer. As you've not altered front roll resistance or turn in
its almost like tightening/locking a diff on rwd car I meant over steer sorry!!
h701micra
Deactivated Account
Coilovers damping rate adjustable?
OP
OP
Thank you guys for the advices! Interesting readings! Honestly I didn't considered the stiffness thing when I bought them. Why did I choose Nismo kit?
The Nismo ARBs are 25mm on the front and 18mm on the rear. There is no other option about bars size/thickness.
The Whiteline kit is 22 on the front and 20 on the rear.
Due to the actual Yen exchange rate, it was cheaper, faster and easier for me to get a brand new Nismo kit than a Whiteline kit (ordering Whiteline stuff seems to be on demand and takes a few weeks, and I've read (here and on micra.au) a few times that they sometimes mix up the order/id products:
http://www.micra.org.uk/threads/whiteline-adjustable-panhard-rod.26118/ ).
The Nismo kit has been specially designed for the K11, and a lot of japanese March enthusiasts reviews are great about it. Also Nismo quality build should be better than Whiteline's.
Interesting too, but why both Whiteline AND Nismo build thicker front bars than the rear for every fwd cars?
OP
OP
After some reads whats h701micra saying has been confirmed:
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_112694/article.html
It’s best to fit a thicker anti-roll bar to the rear of these cars, with stiffness increases of 100 per cent over standard being common. This helps hold the car flat, counteracting understeer without causing the same problems as a bigger front sway bar which tends to lift the front inside wheel, worsening the understeer.
http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_112694/article.html
- Front Wheel Drive
It’s best to fit a thicker anti-roll bar to the rear of these cars, with stiffness increases of 100 per cent over standard being common. This helps hold the car flat, counteracting understeer without causing the same problems as a bigger front sway bar which tends to lift the front inside wheel, worsening the understeer.
Yes, interesting point. Im very interested to hear your verdict on the setup
h701micra
Deactivated Account
Its a simple concept really. Asking the front wheels to turn in whilst restricting their movement is somewhat dumbfounded. Limiting movement where softer springs are fitted is the usual use. Hence fitted as standard. Most if not all manufacturers make things way as understeer is safer than oversteer
Its not my opinion.. its purely fact that too stiff a front anti roll bar on fwd cars makes them understeer
Why do they make the fronts thicker? Again fairly simple. There's more weight to transfer on the front so a higher roll resistance is necessary to achieve the same effect as the rear. But the above still applies
Its not my opinion.. its purely fact that too stiff a front anti roll bar on fwd cars makes them understeer
Why do they make the fronts thicker? Again fairly simple. There's more weight to transfer on the front so a higher roll resistance is necessary to achieve the same effect as the rear. But the above still applies
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but to control lateral weight transfer you need to alter either weight distribution, or track width or roll stiffness?Correctly weighted Coilovers is all we need
Edit, I guess you can use spring stiffness to control roll stiffness....
But maybe you want different stiffness's in roll and bump?
Anyway, maybe this should be in a new thread rather than Seb's build thread
h701micra
Deactivated Account
That's why damping is considered the 'dark art' of suspension world. That's how we control both bump and rebound in weight transfer and we vary it with springs and alter the force/velocity curvebut to control lateral weight transfer you need to alter either weight distribution, or track width or roll stiffness?
Edit, I guess you can use spring stiffness to control roll stiffness....
But maybe you want different stiffness's in roll and bump?
Anyway, maybe this should be in a new thread rather than Seb's build thread
Roll stiffness is primarily springs. Anti roll bars are simply aid them by limiting movement (increasing roll stiffness). Weight distribution is considered fixed or there'd be too many variables hence corner weighting. Track width is also considered fixed. Varying it to alter the understeer/oversteer characteristics of the car overall
Apologies Seb for the partial hijack
There's more to it Ed and I'm more than willing to share if needs be
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OP
OP
You're welcome for any interesting reading !
Interesting related topic I've found: http://www.micra.org.uk/threads/k11-anti-roll-bars.53035/
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h701micra
Deactivated Account
We had an anti-roll bar thread a small while back... I added the info to my blog too if it'd interest you?
OP
OP
Couldnt find it ! Any link please?
h701micra
Deactivated Account
OP
OP
Looks like I will need a set of poly bushes... Nismo ones are very expensive and hard to find. Front bar is 25mm and rear 18. Anybody with a link? Can I use random sway bar bushes found on ebay with the good diameter or are they different so I need specific K11 bushes ?
I've found those one :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROTHANE-19...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ec8e0145b&vxp=mtr
I'm also after bushes brackets dimensions. There are two types:
Well looking closely at this page:
http://www.whiteline.com.au/do_segu...el_final=SWAY+BAR+-+MOUNT+BUSHING&vehicle=ALL
It looks like all the brackets are the same for every bushes dimensions
I've found those one :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/PROTHANE-19...Parts_Accessories&hash=item2ec8e0145b&vxp=mtr
I'm also after bushes brackets dimensions. There are two types:
Well looking closely at this page:
http://www.whiteline.com.au/do_segu...el_final=SWAY+BAR+-+MOUNT+BUSHING&vehicle=ALL
It looks like all the brackets are the same for every bushes dimensions
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OP
OP
Thank you Ed! I was about to send you a PM and ask Skinner too
Going to seek a bit more this afternoon and will keep you up to date
OP
OP
Yesterday weather was nice so I decided to fit the Nismo muffler I bought some months ago .
As usual rusted exhaust bolts were a pain to remove!
I had to use a blowtorch to heat them until they became red hot. Once the old one removed I brushed both ends of the connecting pipes to flat and remove rust/dirt and then applied exhaust past to seal everything.
The engine sound is now a bit louder, I really like it
About the ARBs bushes I have found some 18mm for the rear, but I can't find 25 for the front...
As usual rusted exhaust bolts were a pain to remove!
I had to use a blowtorch to heat them until they became red hot. Once the old one removed I brushed both ends of the connecting pipes to flat and remove rust/dirt and then applied exhaust past to seal everything.
The engine sound is now a bit louder, I really like it
About the ARBs bushes I have found some 18mm for the rear, but I can't find 25 for the front...
SirChris
Educated Bodger
*uneducated opinion here*
I feel understeer is more dangerous.
I also know to stiff on the front is also ****e, way too much understeer. not enough body roll to put weight on the 'digging in' wheel if that makes sense.
My experience is over stiff springs on the front and front ARB just made the car handle liek ****e. hence the opinion of roll in the body is needed.
OP
OP
Wow! Thats the site where I've found the rear ones, but the front 25 weren't listed for the Micra ! I didn't think about the 100NX ones ! Smart ! Thank your Chris!
*When you seek an uprated part for the k11, first always take a look in the P11 and 100NX parts!*
h701micra
Deactivated Account
Spot on buddy
If you're transferring weight over you want the weight to transfer over in a way that doesn't over load the tyre. If it over loads the tyre it'll break traction and understeer.
Too stiff a spring and an anti roll bar are a perfect example. Weight can transfer properly and is transfered straight to the tyre. Soften them up the weight transfer is smoother so you can load up the outside tyre for it to "dig in" and pull you round
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SirChris
Educated Bodger
I hear good tyres makes a difference, dunno what muppet said that lol.Spot on buddy
If you're transferring weight over you want the weight to transfer over in a way that doesn't over load the tyre. If it over loads the tyre it'll break traction and understeer.
Too stiff a spring and an anti roll bar are a perfect example. Weight can transfer properly and is transfered straight to the tyre. Soften them up the weight transfer is smoother so you can load up the outside tyre for it to "dig in" and pull you round
I would love to know the best setup for my car. I kinda get the feeling there isnt enough actuall research in to the correct weight springs and arbs for the job.
When I get the dosh I think I will be buying some d2 coilovers then getting them setup properly
***edit
Damper rates and all that other ****e. Why cant someone just make something I can buy and it just works
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h701micra
Deactivated Account
Every car varies and every driver so each setup is different. Knowing you and your car I could select your initial springs and arb's. Then fine tune with the dampers
There's a fair bit on the rally side if it but they'll be slightly softer compared a track car. But they'll be spot on for daily's/ weekend warriors
Best thing to do... corner weighting
I'm spending a whole week on a k11 may just for handling so I should have a good clue by then. My research in the meantime has given me a good start point
SirChris
Educated Bodger
Every car varies and every driver so each setup is different. Knowing you and your car I could select your initial springs and arb's. Then fine tune with the dampers
There's a fair bit on the rally side if it but they'll be slightly softer compared a track car. But they'll be spot on for daily's/ weekend warriors
Best thing to do... corner weighting
I'm spending a whole week on a k11 may just for handling so I should have a good clue by then. My research in the meantime has given me a good start point
My issue is I like a hardass planted ride. I dont know why, when the car is soft i dont feel i have the control. I dont know what it is. I do however know that harder i go I get too much skipping, bumps will throw the car out.
h701micra
Deactivated Account
That's the problem with tge crossover from track to daily
Track = Smooth
Daily roads = crap
Tarmac rally setup for you
Soft enough to deal with the crap roads but tight enough to hold on at a pace
OP
OP
As almost every year, I've done the usual Paris > Corsica > Paris trip by car in the Micra. 900KM x2.
In the ferry:
The back of the car was fully loaded to bring some heavy domestic appliance (rear seats were removed) but drove per-fect-ly.
During the road tirp I've done a few tests about fuel mileage.
On the way to go to Corsica we drove at 90/100KMH on national free roads and achieved low fuel consumtion. Here are some pics:
On the way back; the back of the car was almost empty and I took highway because we were tired and we wanted to reach back home quickly, so we drove at 130KMH all along.
The fuel consumtion was way higher:
At this speed I only managed to do 600KM with a full tank.
So in the end (fuel + highway fee) the way back was quicker but much more expensive. Only gain was time.
Tons of great roads to drive there, especially in the mountains with view on the sea. Few pics:
View attachment 30469
In the ferry:
The back of the car was fully loaded to bring some heavy domestic appliance (rear seats were removed) but drove per-fect-ly.
During the road tirp I've done a few tests about fuel mileage.
On the way to go to Corsica we drove at 90/100KMH on national free roads and achieved low fuel consumtion. Here are some pics:
On the way back; the back of the car was almost empty and I took highway because we were tired and we wanted to reach back home quickly, so we drove at 130KMH all along.
The fuel consumtion was way higher:
At this speed I only managed to do 600KM with a full tank.
So in the end (fuel + highway fee) the way back was quicker but much more expensive. Only gain was time.
Tons of great roads to drive there, especially in the mountains with view on the sea. Few pics:
View attachment 30469
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