Hitting 150bhp?
- Thread starter Robert
- Start date
Ok having a lot of time thinking about this, I have come to this conclusion.
To achieve 150bhp my first option was to put a 1.6 engine in from a primera. I bought the donor car booked it in and the stress and nightmare of the whole thing maid me think it was never meant to be so I ditched that idea and tbh I’m glad I did.
The reason that I am glad is that over the years of being on this site (quite a few now) I have only really seen one successful engine conversion, Dave Bull’s. And he deserves a huge amount of respect for this he did one hell of a job.
All the others, and there have been loads have failed, they generally get scraped shortly after completion, if they ever get there. And they never really run right imo. I have no first hand experience of this so it’s only speculation, but from what I can gather they all have issues and aren’t good cars to own or run hence the scrapping.
Dave Bulls cost a small fortune to make it work and that is because he did not seem to compromise where all the others have. He put the engine where it should be (reworked the whole firewall) and made all of the mounts and running gear fit nigh on perfectly (custom). The others are using bodged mounts, re-welded drive shafts, cut looms etc etc. Now this is all well and good for keeping the costs down but it obviously doesn’t work and ends up costing more in the long run. You end up with a car destin for the great scrap yard in the sky. So therefore loosing the car and the money spent on doing the conversion.
So back to 150bhp,
N/A, this is a very expensive route from what I can gather and I have looked. Ok so second hand parts…fine it will be cheaper but tbh you don’t really want second hand used inner engine bits like cams etc you want them new. So you would need a re-worked intake manifold or maybe ITB’s, Headwork, cams, new pistons with higher compression, possibly stronger rods too, new exhaust manifold and then the whole thing to be re-mapped professionally. So basically your best bet for this is buy a new engine and buy the bits as and when you can. Build the block outside of the car then once its complete put it all together. The labour on this would cost a fortune also that is always something that is overlooked.
Ok, now forced induction.
I’ve only really looking into turbo charging so that’s all ill talk about ill let someone else talk about the SC route. You can source 50-60% of the parts online and most of those aren’t suited for a Micra. So what you can’t get online and doesn’t fit perfectly will have to be modified on made custom. Once you have all of your bits putting the kit on is fairly easy then its just the mapping stage. If you try and run too much power you will run into internal issues. HG failure melted pistons, fuel shortages etc etc so that would require internals, low comp pistons high tensile rods larger fuel pump uprated injectors oil cooler etc etc.
But I feel that 150bhp can be achieved without this extra work so long as the car is mapped well.
So I would say. Transplant is a no go area, it doesn’t really work well from what I have seen. Turbo is fine if you map it right and delivers the power VERY well. Tonnes of torque and its so much fun haha. And then if you have the time/money and the patients and don’t want turbo I would go N/A
Failing all of those go nitrous and get a load of spare engines. You can change an engine in a day if you have all the right kit and I think the gains prove to be very good if a little risky.
All of this is my opinion so don’t take it to heart if I have said anything that you don’t agree with and I have most likely missed a load of information as this is quite a long post. But it’s a start.
Thanks
Dave
To achieve 150bhp my first option was to put a 1.6 engine in from a primera. I bought the donor car booked it in and the stress and nightmare of the whole thing maid me think it was never meant to be so I ditched that idea and tbh I’m glad I did.
The reason that I am glad is that over the years of being on this site (quite a few now) I have only really seen one successful engine conversion, Dave Bull’s. And he deserves a huge amount of respect for this he did one hell of a job.
All the others, and there have been loads have failed, they generally get scraped shortly after completion, if they ever get there. And they never really run right imo. I have no first hand experience of this so it’s only speculation, but from what I can gather they all have issues and aren’t good cars to own or run hence the scrapping.
Dave Bulls cost a small fortune to make it work and that is because he did not seem to compromise where all the others have. He put the engine where it should be (reworked the whole firewall) and made all of the mounts and running gear fit nigh on perfectly (custom). The others are using bodged mounts, re-welded drive shafts, cut looms etc etc. Now this is all well and good for keeping the costs down but it obviously doesn’t work and ends up costing more in the long run. You end up with a car destin for the great scrap yard in the sky. So therefore loosing the car and the money spent on doing the conversion.
So back to 150bhp,
N/A, this is a very expensive route from what I can gather and I have looked. Ok so second hand parts…fine it will be cheaper but tbh you don’t really want second hand used inner engine bits like cams etc you want them new. So you would need a re-worked intake manifold or maybe ITB’s, Headwork, cams, new pistons with higher compression, possibly stronger rods too, new exhaust manifold and then the whole thing to be re-mapped professionally. So basically your best bet for this is buy a new engine and buy the bits as and when you can. Build the block outside of the car then once its complete put it all together. The labour on this would cost a fortune also that is always something that is overlooked.
Ok, now forced induction.
I’ve only really looking into turbo charging so that’s all ill talk about ill let someone else talk about the SC route. You can source 50-60% of the parts online and most of those aren’t suited for a Micra. So what you can’t get online and doesn’t fit perfectly will have to be modified on made custom. Once you have all of your bits putting the kit on is fairly easy then its just the mapping stage. If you try and run too much power you will run into internal issues. HG failure melted pistons, fuel shortages etc etc so that would require internals, low comp pistons high tensile rods larger fuel pump uprated injectors oil cooler etc etc.
But I feel that 150bhp can be achieved without this extra work so long as the car is mapped well.
So I would say. Transplant is a no go area, it doesn’t really work well from what I have seen. Turbo is fine if you map it right and delivers the power VERY well. Tonnes of torque and its so much fun haha. And then if you have the time/money and the patients and don’t want turbo I would go N/A
Failing all of those go nitrous and get a load of spare engines. You can change an engine in a day if you have all the right kit and I think the gains prove to be very good if a little risky.
All of this is my opinion so don’t take it to heart if I have said anything that you don’t agree with and I have most likely missed a load of information as this is quite a long post. But it’s a start.
Thanks
Dave
Id give sombody 50 quid to get 150 N/A using a CG1.3 for less than 1500
Reliably: ..turbo its possible.. and engine transplant its possible...
..either option in my opinion are similarly difficult, but greatly more rewarding in bhp and torque increases..
.. people have a misconception about turboing the CG13DE... also transplants for that matter..
..Id much rather a turbo'd 130 bhp than 150 N/A
Reliably: ..turbo its possible.. and engine transplant its possible...
..either option in my opinion are similarly difficult, but greatly more rewarding in bhp and torque increases..
.. people have a misconception about turboing the CG13DE... also transplants for that matter..
..Id much rather a turbo'd 130 bhp than 150 N/A
frank
Club Member
dave
i agree with most of what you say there ! (on post #52, curse my slow 1 finger typing :down: )
but 150 hp is a hell of an increase if its n/a, the only cars i have seen with outputs close to 100 hp/ltr have vtec
and to complicate the issue why do dyno shops come up with wildly different output figures ? mot brake test equipment has to be calibrated every 6 mths and i bet we can,t get 2 people to agree on the formula to work out flywheel hp/ roadwheel hp !
i agree with most of what you say there ! (on post #52, curse my slow 1 finger typing :down: )
but 150 hp is a hell of an increase if its n/a, the only cars i have seen with outputs close to 100 hp/ltr have vtec
and to complicate the issue why do dyno shops come up with wildly different output figures ? mot brake test equipment has to be calibrated every 6 mths and i bet we can,t get 2 people to agree on the formula to work out flywheel hp/ roadwheel hp !
Frank there are near infinate varaible for rolling roads (or rather the conditions under which they operate) My experience at least I have found dynodynmics to be the most consistant (pretty much where ever you go too). Generally give the lowest figures too.
Antony
Ex. Club Member
so ive got to make another 40bhp over my car with £1200??
ive got 95.5bhp (as of JAE 07, chassis dynamics dyno) with just a janspeed.
so ive got Piper cams, Head work, Inlet manifold, ECU remap, 1.6 throttle body and Flywheel for £1200?
easily reach 135bhp. i mean cumulatively. ultimate cams... 10bhp, head work 7bhp, inlet manifold 5bhp, ecu re-map (with raised limiter to accomodate cams) 8bhp, throttle body from 1600nissan 5bhp...... and negliagable for flywheel...
thats a total of 132bhp.... and dont forget that bhp gains add up exponetialy rather than singularly, add that to the fact my engine was knakered at 95.5bhp, and i now have a very much newer one with better compression.
i could possibly see 140bhp for £1500. or even more... we shall see...
ive got 95.5bhp (as of JAE 07, chassis dynamics dyno) with just a janspeed.
so ive got Piper cams, Head work, Inlet manifold, ECU remap, 1.6 throttle body and Flywheel for £1200?
easily reach 135bhp. i mean cumulatively. ultimate cams... 10bhp, head work 7bhp, inlet manifold 5bhp, ecu re-map (with raised limiter to accomodate cams) 8bhp, throttle body from 1600nissan 5bhp...... and negliagable for flywheel...
thats a total of 132bhp.... and dont forget that bhp gains add up exponetialy rather than singularly, add that to the fact my engine was knakered at 95.5bhp, and i now have a very much newer one with better compression.
i could possibly see 140bhp for £1500. or even more... we shall see...
solarice
Ex. Club Member
you could easily do this, if you just went out a bolted somthing on (think clarkson on topgear where he just added a turbo for the grass tack race awhile back)...the car will die shortly after but that isnt a part of the current rules.
To be honest, if its that the car must be drivable (which im reading it as) then by the time youve also included uprating the brakes, fuel system, induction system, exhaust system, engine upgrades, mapping and then the turbo or sc...youve spent a bit, maybe even more if you go N/A even if you do buy second hand parts...so while it seems fairly simple to achieve, i feel in reality its actually alot harder.
As said i'll have a total up when im done and see what i get, ive gone the route of cheaper secondhand parts and done all my own work where possible so will get an idea of exactly how close i am to this estimate...
To be honest, if its that the car must be drivable (which im reading it as) then by the time youve also included uprating the brakes, fuel system, induction system, exhaust system, engine upgrades, mapping and then the turbo or sc...youve spent a bit, maybe even more if you go N/A even if you do buy second hand parts...so while it seems fairly simple to achieve, i feel in reality its actually alot harder.
As said i'll have a total up when im done and see what i get, ive gone the route of cheaper secondhand parts and done all my own work where possible so will get an idea of exactly how close i am to this estimate...
Antony
Ex. Club Member
so what gains would you expect from this lot?
bearing in mind my engine has over 108,000 miles, knakered piston rings, 4th head gasket in a year, valve stem seals that are origonal,standard everything but the janspeed and its got just over 95bhp?
and im going to a March engine with 28,000 ish miles on the clock, very good piston rings,newer valve seals, and the work above?
i think 40BHP for this lot is conservative... very in fact.
Retepetsir
King of Subsonic
What did it get at the hubs?
Retepetsir
King of Subsonic
Any change in fueling or just standard?
and was it a sustained-load dyno or an acceleration chassis dyno?
Gotta be 140 calculated at the fly - that sort of power on the wheels would not last long (although I did read about a 190ps one in Japland)
Craig
Antony
Ex. Club Member
Any change in fueling or just standard?
and was it a sustained-load dyno or an acceleration chassis dyno?
i think it was acceleration, and nope, just whacked a janspeed on it, chucked some active-8 in the oil, with a filter on it, and bobs your uncle....
and i was quite a hot day (allthough very wet.lol)
solarice
Ex. Club Member
ah ok, well i'd disagree with your estimate craig (for my build atleast)
mainly as im bound to be over the £1500 but that covers everything (brakes, new lines, fueling etc etc) id only estimate my whole build to be about £2-2.5k at the worst (including additionals that others wouldnt need to sort out before building -- not that ive totalled this up yet )Granted ive not uprated internals but for what im assuming mine will produce shouldnt be needed anyway...also with it being at the fly i may now be back in the game.
We shall indeed see
Well, we'll see what a CG13 will do on a standard head and compression with NME cams in the new year on both a remapped ecu and on throttle bodies with an Omex.
I'm not expecting to reach 135 on the latter setup & that will breath well. There are things about the CG13 that people haven't considered which limit torque, power & driveability.
I reckon 125bhp is a reasonable figure to aim for.
As for 1/4mile timeslips, you get the same arguments as you do with dynos. There's too much difference between venues, (POD, Crail etc), driver skill, setup etc.
It's honestly sad that people get their noses so bent out of shape over a set of dyno figures. I bet people will be bickering about them in 10 years time, if they're still on here
I'm not expecting to reach 135 on the latter setup & that will breath well. There are things about the CG13 that people haven't considered which limit torque, power & driveability.
I reckon 125bhp is a reasonable figure to aim for.
As for 1/4mile timeslips, you get the same arguments as you do with dynos. There's too much difference between venues, (POD, Crail etc), driver skill, setup etc.
It's honestly sad that people get their noses so bent out of shape over a set of dyno figures. I bet people will be bickering about them in 10 years time, if they're still on here
We'll add to that with figures from a CG13 on standard head and compression, standard bottom end, with Tomei cams, throttle bodies and with a little help from Emerald.
So what did you end up with LOWRIDER? We had car set up at JKM in Portsmouth and got 93.9bhp at wheels at 7400rpm.
See short clip here;
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ybVXVsczr1E
Whole setup works really nice, we're running standard injectors up to about 60% (IIRC) and then hold them at that and then 'bleed' the Gixer ones in from there, which is somewhere around 5000rpm.
Power is not significantly falling off at 7400, so will be looking for more revs with the new bottom end build, at moment bottom end is completely standard with 100k on it. I think 100bhp at wheels should be fairly easy to reach. On the Dyno Dynamics rollers this worked back to 122bhp at flywheel.
Can't wait to get back out on the Qinetic track (by Ed) in April and have a go at a certain MG Rover that we've been itchin' to beat for a year or more now!!
zanes
Ex. Club Member
Right, I'm going to chip in my two penneth worth here.
I'm with Ed, I think the law of diminishing returns will kick in way below 150hp for N/A. That said, I still think N/A is the way to go.
Engine transplants, while impressive on paper, are too much work to be honest. Bear in mind the CG is an all-alloy block, whereas the SR is at least partially iron, iirc it is something like 40 kilos heavier, which can't be good for handling. Also, alot of electrical work is required. I'm in the first year of an Meng in electronics and electrical engineering, and I can't honestly say that most people would get it spot on- I've had brief looks into it, and short of pulling out the entire loom and bunging a donor one in, there's a lot to go wrong. That said, spliced properly it could work. Then you get onto mounts, driveshafts, possible chassis modification etc, and thats only the beginning. Also the change from 1.3 to 1.6/2.0 litre in one go, coupled with the changes in handling, can be a very dangerous jump.
Turbo/supercharging (why supercharging, so much more work) seems a good way to go, and honestly, if I had £4000+ to spend, along with alot of expertise on tap (the old adage; If you have to ask how to do it, don't bother doing it is particulary apt here) I would give it a shot, again it is alot of very complex, involved work. Again massive amounts of wiring/remapping (especially the latter) are required.
So, this leaves the N/A route. Likewise, this gets expensive quickly (once again remaps etc are required quickly), and it can get very complex. That said, it can be a nice progressive project, gradually increasing the power a little at a time...
Please note that the above is mostly my opinions, thoughts and insights I have gained (recommended reading: Fundamentals of Motor Vehicle Technology) here and elsewhere, and as such may well be complete and utter ########. No gains guaranteed or inferred. Your mileage may vary. Batteries not included.
I'm with Ed, I think the law of diminishing returns will kick in way below 150hp for N/A. That said, I still think N/A is the way to go.
Engine transplants, while impressive on paper, are too much work to be honest. Bear in mind the CG is an all-alloy block, whereas the SR is at least partially iron, iirc it is something like 40 kilos heavier, which can't be good for handling. Also, alot of electrical work is required. I'm in the first year of an Meng in electronics and electrical engineering, and I can't honestly say that most people would get it spot on- I've had brief looks into it, and short of pulling out the entire loom and bunging a donor one in, there's a lot to go wrong. That said, spliced properly it could work. Then you get onto mounts, driveshafts, possible chassis modification etc, and thats only the beginning. Also the change from 1.3 to 1.6/2.0 litre in one go, coupled with the changes in handling, can be a very dangerous jump.
Turbo/supercharging (why supercharging, so much more work) seems a good way to go, and honestly, if I had £4000+ to spend, along with alot of expertise on tap (the old adage; If you have to ask how to do it, don't bother doing it is particulary apt here) I would give it a shot, again it is alot of very complex, involved work. Again massive amounts of wiring/remapping (especially the latter) are required.
So, this leaves the N/A route. Likewise, this gets expensive quickly (once again remaps etc are required quickly), and it can get very complex. That said, it can be a nice progressive project, gradually increasing the power a little at a time...
Please note that the above is mostly my opinions, thoughts and insights I have gained (recommended reading: Fundamentals of Motor Vehicle Technology) here and elsewhere, and as such may well be complete and utter ########. No gains guaranteed or inferred. Your mileage may vary. Batteries not included.
