cuting the springs

Butters65 said:
I Cut my lowering springs 60mm....So the car is now lowered 100mm........ Nothing touches it on the bends....The only draw back is to strengten the stabilser bar(Goes from the chassis to the rear axle) I welded a piece of striaght bar up into it.....

It is the best mod i've done... Its quicker around a roundabout then my mates scooby!!!!
He was not impressed to say the least.......................:D:D
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How do the springs now jump out?!
 
the springs dont just jump on their own. you have to make them loose by unweighting the suspension. i have only ever managed to do this once (all 4 wheel in the air over a small humback bridge... quite funny actualy)

but the rears are captured and the fronts can be held in with cable ties or welding wire...
 
But 60mm off the rear springs seems like a lot....even with the cars weight sitting on them.

Edit: See, my local MOT man would fail the car if the springs were cable tied in. Lucky your dad is one aye ;)
 
my dad is 100% legit and hes not an mot man..... hes the man that tells the men who tell the other men to go around and check that the guys at the mot test stations are doing their jobs properly.... hes the guy thats at fatal accidents telling the Traffic police where to go and what to do and investigating what happened.


and my exhaust is held on with about 400 cable ties and its been like that for 3 years.... no problems.. not even an advisary.
 
markbognor said:
Because its not nessarsaryly about improving the handling.




So every MOT tester in the country knows the exact manufactures specifications for every car and every set of aftermarket springs? Yours is a very rigid interpretation of the wording that is not workable in the real world.

So what exactly is it that they do to make them shorter that isn't chopping them? Cut, Chopped, Shortened its all the same, a spring is made shorter by the removal of some of its length.

In some cases this might mean that the springs needs heating and bending to return the tail to its factory shape to aid seating, they would of course need re-tempering to regain their spring-ness. In some cases because of the spring seat design this is not nessarsary and the shortening process would be no different wherever it was done.

Awsome post Anthony, It would appear that the man from delmonte VOSA, he says Yes.

Not to metion that there is another example of an MOT tester passing a spring that has been cut.
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when professionally done they are cut then extended, shaped and treated back to the proper specifaction my mate had his done and they are still soft as original but 35mm lower and as safe as original. i put cut springs on my old car and they where constanly cuming out or the holders and almost put the car into a wall put lowering springs on by boge and they didnt fall out but had the same softness it'll not just be your life ull be putting at risk by bodgein it
 
If you put cut springs on your old car that kept coming out of the seats then its your fault that the car performed erratically and was unsafe. You clearly were using them in a situation were the use of cut springs was innapropriate. Perhaps a secondary method of securing the springs in place was needed?

I don't think that this discussion has ever been about cut springs being perfectly legal, safe or appropriate in all situations. We've covered many instances where the cutting of springs just shouldn't be done, particuarly where the spring seat design requires that the cut end is flat, rather than with a tail, were springs have a pig tail design (think MK2 Astra) and where the spring does not re-seat after full extension of the suspension. As well as cutting the spring in such a way that the risk of the temper being lost is minimised or that the cut end is re-tempered after modification.

Cut springs can not be used in every situation. When used appropriately they can be perfectly safe, and legal.

jowley said:
when professionally done they are cut then extended, shaped and treated back to the proper specifaction my mate had his done and they are still soft as original but 35mm lower and as safe as original. i put cut springs on my old car and they where constanly cuming out or the holders and almost put the car into a wall put lowering springs on by boge and they didnt fall out but had the same softness it'll not just be your life ull be putting at risk by bodgein it
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Pardon?

lancebeano said:
when i cut my springs how much drop do i get for each coil i cut out and how many should i cut out all the best lance
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You won't get the same drop for each coil removed, each coil removed will get progressively less drop because the spring gets stiffer each time.

The only way to really ensure that you get the drop you want is to do it in stages, yeah it requires a lot of re-assembely and dis-assembely but you will know where you are at each stage.
 
wow this is stupid!

lets say you have some disk brakes, and you wanted to make the disks drilled?

could you then go to a professional place and have them drilled so they are perfectly balanced?

NO!

because it distroys the metal, it causes weaknesses, and changes it from its original design, they have to be cast as one piece.

springs are the same, they are not just a bit of metal, they are designed to be the way they are, you don't just bodge them with an angle grinder.

they are one of the most important parts of the car after tyres and brakes. they are the only thing between you and control of your car.

but really the biggest problem i have with this thread is that people want to cut springs to save having to buy them?!?! they are cheap, they are very cheap compared to some things you can buy, and the idea that some people would take an angle grinder to a critical part of their car to save £60 it worrying... what else on the car is bodge?

and all this stuff about it passing an MOT makes it legal? i bought my car with a 12 month MOT only to find that the sills were full of filler. how many MOT stations will check the springs? as already stated, they can't know what they were originally like, but that doesn't make them safe.


the main point is, you wouldn't take a drill to your brake disk, you wouldn't fix a punchure with chewing gum, so why would you lower your car with an angle grinder?
 
NeX said:
wow this is stupid!


but really the biggest problem i have with this thread is that people want to cut springs to save having to buy them?!?! they are cheap, they are very cheap compared to some things you can buy, and the idea that some people would take an angle grinder to a critical part of their car to save £60 it worrying... what else on the car is bodge?
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Ralph, im having the same trouble with this thread, £60 is not alot of money for PROFESSIONAL lowering springs not an angle grinder job to your current springs.

It DOES NOT make the car stiffer so i cant understand why people are saying that, also good example with the brake discs Ralph.

I want people to modify their car but please please please....do it through the proper channels.
 
The handling is crap at best, I wouldn't want to make it worse, even if it tripled my street cred lol
I don't get really low cars full stop, why would you want to have to choose roads with no speed bumps
 
ollyc98 said:
why would you want to have to choose roads with no speed bumps
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Where I live I don't even HAVE that choice. There is a minimum of I think eight steep-sided brick monoliths to negotiate just to get out onto the main road. Yes I'd love to lower my car and improve the handling but I'd be pushing my luck by taking just a couple of inches off the ground clearance!

Cut springs? NOOOOOOOO !!


BG
 
god the ignorance of some people on here...

people have been cutting springs since the 1930's. as with any modification if its done correct there is no problem with them at all..

i have cut eibachs (2 coils) on the back of my car and they have been to santa pod and donnington park, they have been on rough roads, smooth roads, jumps, hump backed bridges etc etc etc.

i understand peoples concerns about cutting springs. but its only daft to do this with stock springs and cut them in half lets say. 1 or 2 coils wont make any differenc to the safety of the vehicle. i mean how many of the coils are touching when the stock suspension is on the vehicle? if you simply remove those coils the rest of the spring can be used correctly and will be almost the same length as the originals but will allow more movement. and due to there not being any Touching coils the car will naturaly sit lower.



and all this about tempering the springs by using an angle grinder.... come on. someone has been reading an "engineering for dumies" book and has the complete wrong idea on how tempering a metal (especialy one as hard as a car spring) is done and at what temperature this occours. the risk of actualy damaging a spring seat on a micra is virtualy 0% as both the top and bottom mounts on a micra are rubber.... so regardless of the type of 'cut' on the spring as long as it is done Correctly... it is perfectly legal, perfectly safe and has been done with no ill effects for decades.
 
i have cut my springs and there fine theyve not fell out atalll! there fine if done properly in my opinion :)

But all to their own!
 
i don't want to get involved with a long drawn out debate about these things,

but i do want to ask, why don't class winning rally cars or F1 cars have cut springs? why do they all have properly made springs fitted?

if cutting springs works so well why do companies even make lowering springs when they could just cut up some normal springs and spray them, or people could do their own?

there must be a reason why this mod never makes it into the professional industry
 
nissanmicrak12 said:
no i agree but it does make the car safer :D (Y)
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to be honest the car is as safe as the person driving it. a parked car with no one driving it is the safest of all, ABS or not.

all that ABS means, is the less compitent the driver has to be, which is not a good thing really, if it goes wrong, or the same person gets in a car without ABS they will be far more dangerous.
 
NeX said:
i don't want to get involved with a long drawn out debate about these things,

but i do want to ask, why don't class winning rally cars or F1 cars have cut springs? why do they all have properly made springs fitted?

if cutting springs works so well why do companies even make lowering springs when they could just cut up some normal springs and spray them, or people could do their own?

there must be a reason why this mod never makes it into the professional industry
Click to expand...

class winning rally cars or F1 cars dont have cut springs because they have springs that can be fully adjusted !lmao

if cutting springs works so well why do companies even make lowering springs.... thats like saying if a 1.2 micra gets you from a to b why do nissan make a 1.6?!!!

!its all about money my friend if there was a market for you to sell, lets say a second hand car would you sell the second hand car....? of course you would !just like people wanting to buy springs pre made to a certain height some people would rather cut their springs and some people would rather buy them legal or not .
end of rant...

why even bother wasting your breath trying to tell someone what you think,when 1 they wont listen anyway 2 your talking to a wall and 3 your time could be better spent ordering them the 60 pound springs you wont stop raving about lmao (not aimed at nex)

BTW i am not for cut springs, and i am not against cut springs:confused::confused: TBH who cares (Y) :laugh:

NeX said:
to be honest the car is as safe as the person driving it. a parked car with no one driving it is the safest of all, ABS or not.

all that ABS means, is the less compitent the driver has to be, which is not a good thing really, if it goes wrong, or the same person gets in a car without ABS they will be far more dangerous.
Click to expand...
i agree again lol my missus would be crud in a car with no abs lmao
 
To sum up everything that has been said (not my opinion, everyone elses):

Cut springs are illegal unless you ignore some of the wording in the mot testing manual, and who cares if they're illegal and DANGErOUS as long as they look good. Even if they aren't dangerous it's worth losing the handling to have a low car cos no-one wants to spend extra money on something designed for the job.

It's like saying: yeah I want a lap dance, but I don't wanna pay for a real woman, just give that guy a sex change with an angle grinder as it's cheaper, it won't be as sexy but f*** it it's not illegal
 
nissanmicrak12 said:
class winning rally cars or F1 cars dont have cut springs because they have springs that can be fully adjusted !lmao

if cutting springs works so well why do companies even make lowering springs.... thats like saying if a 1.2 micra gets you from a to b why do nissan make a 1.6?!!!

!its all about money my friend if there was a market for you to sell, lets say a second hand car would you sell the second hand car....? of course you would !just like people wanting to buy springs pre made to a certain height some people would rather cut their springs and some people would rather buy them legal or not .
end of rant...

why even bother wasting your breath trying to tell someone what you think,when 1 they wont listen anyway 2 your talking to a wall and 3 your time could be better spent ordering them the 60 pound springs you wont stop raving about lmao (not aimed at nex)

BTW i am not for cut springs, and i am not against cut springs:confused::confused: TBH who cares (Y) :laugh:


i agree again lol my missus would be crud in a car with no abs lmao
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well the springs on F1 cars are just springs, its the mountings for the springs that are adjustable, they would still have to cut them if they wanted to go ultra low ;)

and that is EXACTLY my point! why have a 1.2 when a 1.6 is better, for the sake of £60 why cut your springs when you could have some better lowering springs?

like you said its all about money, and thats what i don't get, they are not expensive, if they were maybe £250 or something then i can see the point, but I have a set of 40mm springs on my car that cost me £40, thats £1 a mm! bargin.

lol i totally agree about the ranting part lol, there is a difference between discussing something and just shouting your point, some people won't listen.

hahaha i have a friend who is always asking me why their car vibrates under braking, i told them it was the ABS kicking in, and i banned them from driving my car lol
 
Antony said:
god the ignorance of some people on here...

people have been cutting springs since the 1930's. as with any modification if its done correct there is no problem with them at all..



and all this about tempering the springs by using an angle grinder.... come on. someone has been reading an "engineering for dumies" book and has the complete wrong idea on how tempering a metal (especialy one as hard as a car spring) is done and at what temperature this occours. the risk of actualy damaging a spring seat on a micra is virtualy 0% as both the top and bottom mounts on a micra are rubber.... so regardless of the type of 'cut' on the spring as long as it is done Correctly... it is perfectly legal, perfectly safe and has been done with no ill effects for decades.
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I guess that might have been me, but you have been very demorcratic and not named names. I didn't at any point mean to suggest that, I might have dropped a de- at some point though. The cutting can cause a lot of localised heat build up in the cut end, changing its spring properties, and destroying the temper of part of the spring, particualy if using a thick cutting disk. This is why it should never be done using an oxy-acetylene torch.



"It DOES NOT make the car stiffer so i cant understand why people are saying that." - Paddymarsden

A spring is essentially a long peice of bar, (or a torsion spring) that is wound up into a coil to save space.

Put one end of a bar in a vice and grip the other with mole grips and turn. You'll notice you can wind up the bar and it springs back. Now cut some off the bar and try it again, it will be harder to twist. This is the same as what happens with a coil spring, as the spring is compressed it is twisting the bar that the spring is made from. Remove some and that bar is harder to twist, therefore its harder to compress the spring.

I got into work early this morning so I have done a very rough and ready experiment to illustrate. The same in principal as described above.

The load, and the length of the lever stayed constant, so it is only the ammount of bar unclamped and able to twist that changes.

Long bar - Lots of twist.

DSCI0666-1.jpg


Med bar - less twist.

DSCI0667-1.jpg


Short bar - less twist again.

DSCI0668-1.jpg


As the bar gets shorter it gets harder to twist.

"Coil springs are a special type of torsion spring, the material of the spring acts in torsion when the spring is compressed or extended."

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coil_spring
 
Your theory is right but unfortunately that's a load of crap, the springs aren't held in like a vice, or have I missed something here?

The bar is dropping less when shorter due to there being less leverage, the leverage on a coil spring will always be the size of one coil
 
I have found a couple of sources that appear to back up my arguement.


http://www.eatonsprings.com/atqCuttingCoilSpringsCalculations.htm


http://www.tuninglinx.com/html/spring-rate.html

http://www.tuninglinx.com/html/springs.html

Shortening the spring raises the spring rate, rasining the spring rate makes the spring more difficult to compress.

The lever in my experiment does not change length (the length from the 90degree turn to the hook the load hangs on).

If the experiment was set up with the two ends as leavers with a constant length, and a constant load applied to each end with only the length of rod between the two leavers vaired then this would then make the experiment mimic the winding action of a coil spring under load more accurately because the free coils between the mounting surface are wound from each end rather than from one end like the experiment. The same result would be obtained.

The flatened ends of the springs are the two leavers (the diameter of coil like you have stated) these are the bit of the spring that sit in the seat, the length of spring between these two is that part that winds up like the torsion spring.
 
Oh in that case I retract my previous statement, I guess the metal is the same springiness but the travel is shortened, I still think lowering springs are a better option though as they are designed for the job
 
NeX said:
well the springs on F1 cars are just springs, its the mountings for the springs that are adjustable, they would still have to cut them if they wanted to go ultra low ;)

and that is EXACTLY my point! why have a 1.2 when a 1.6 is better, for the sake of £60 why cut your springs when you could have some better lowering springs?

like you said its all about money, and thats what i don't get, they are not expensive, if they were maybe £250 or something then i can see the point, but I have a set of 40mm springs on my car that cost me £40, thats £1 a mm! bargin.

lol i totally agree about the ranting part lol, there is a difference between discussing something and just shouting your point, some people won't listen.

hahaha i have a friend who is always asking me why their car vibrates under braking, i told them it was the ABS kicking in, and i banned them from driving my car lol
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ah of course dur i forgot its the adjusters lol!:grinning: it works out 25p per mm on each spring nex!:eek: 40 quid is a full tank of juice +6 quid or so you would be mad not to buy them lol

BANNED!lol:laugh:

The calculation to find the rate of a coil spring is:

(11,250,000 times the wire diameter to the 4th power divided by 8 times the active number of turns times the mean diameter cubed.

Active turns are the number of turns of the spring that do not touch anything. Any part of the coil which makes contact with anything becomes inactive, that is it no longer functions as part of the spring.)
thats what i thought! lmao

The only type of coil springs that can be safely cut are those with "tangential" ends.

Tangential ends look as though they just twist off into space. The spring would fall over if you tried to stand the spring up. according to easton springs.com .
looks like everyones a winner.... i mean right :D
 
interesting, so now its just down to if the micra springs have flattened ends or not
 
/\ thats what i said...lol

it doesnt matter on a k11 as the rear springs are on rubber mountings that take up and irregularities anyway...

and i only cut off the inactive "touching" coils...
i would never reccomend cutting a spring in half or anything..
 
Antony said:
/\ thats what i said...lol

it doesnt matter on a k11 as the rear springs are on rubber mountings that take up and irregularities anyway...

and i only cut off the inactive "touching" coils...
i would never reccomend cutting a spring in half or anything..
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so whats the point of the touching coils? just a spacer?
 
its usualy just a sign of a cheap spring.

after all. motor cycle springs dont have them, mountain bike springs dont and most super cars dont have touching coils either..... but if you remove the un-used coils it lowers the car by the size of those un-used coils but doesnt effect the usable spring itself. and like i keep saying the rear of a micra is completely captured top and bottom. so its not popping out any time soon.,
 
Errrm, not wanting to point out the bleedin' obvious BUT:


When Nissan make their springs (or others with aftermarket ones), what do they do to determine the size before putting into the car?

THEY CUT THEM

Every spring ever made is 'cut' once at the appropriate length for the desired affect is achieved.

Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to go read up on spring rates and the maths behind it. Cutting a spring that was, say, 10"x2.25"x175lbs by 10% will mean then your springs specifications will alter: the length has reduced by 10% thus your resistance (lbs) will increase by a reletive % (this is not a hard & fast rule, but a good example)

CUTTING A SPRING SHORTER WILL MAKE IT STIFFER - FACT


Go break a pencil in half

then in half again

then again (if you can)

THEN AGAIN (if you're The Hulk)


Getting harder to do?? DUHHHHH!!!!!!
 
3/4 inch wire coiled in a 3 inch circle provides a compression rate of 250lb/inch

Now if you cut a coil out the 3/4 inch wire is still 3/4 inch wire and the circle is still 3 inches and the comression rate is still 250lb/inch the only difference is the ammount the spring compresses until you run out of coils.

The stiffer ride is due to the shocks being sat lower, do I need to draw a diagram here?
 
ollyc98 said:
3/4 inch wire coiled in a 3 inch circle provides a compression rate of 250lb/inch

Now if you cut a coil out the 3/4 inch wire is still 3/4 inch wire and the circle is still 3 inches and the comression rate is still 250lb/inch the only difference is the ammount the spring compresses until you run out of coils.

The stiffer ride is due to the shocks being sat lower, do I need to draw a diagram here?
Click to expand...

Incorrect. The bar is 'tempered'. How come you can get springs in any rate you want made from exactly the same size wire (or Bar), in the same diameter AND at the same length? Ever heard of ADJUSTABLE COILOVERS?? It has nothing to do with the shocks - a shocks rebound rate is not determined by its position within its range of travel.

Do I need to draw a diagram here? or http://www.allrite.com/compdwg.pdf <---have a go yourself (if you can understand it)


moddedmicra said:
I'm pretty sure nissan don't just have a huge long coil and they lop a bit off for each spring :wasntme:
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Ermmm, that's EXACTLY how springs are made. (spring company makes spring thats metres long then CUT TO SIZE, temper the ends, flatten them etc...put in car)
 
Yes the springs are tempered, but cutting them doesn't change the fact that they were made that stiff they are still that stiff only shorter.
 
This thread is just going to be locked as all the threads like this are, it never actually acheives anything. I give it till the next admin/mod is on.
 
ollyc98 said:
Yes the springs are tempered, but cutting them doesn't change the fact that they were made that stiff they are still that stiff only shorter.
Click to expand...


No they are not. They are shorter yes, but if you remove active coils from a spring its spring rate increases. It is therefore harder to compress. This doesn't change the metal, it changes that metals properties when acting as a spring

A coil spring works by winding up the free coils, in exactly the same way as a torsion spring works, only in a nice compact helical package. If you make a torsion spring shorter it gets stiffer. If you have less active coils in a coil spring, you make it shorter, it gets stiffer.

This is obviously not the case if you are only removing inactive parts of the coil, you will only be lowering the car buy the diameter of each inactive coil removed.

Read this page again, it is from a spring manufacturer!

http://www.eatonsprings.com/atqCutti...lculations.htm


moddedmicra - I really hope that that doesn't happen, because I think it does actually seem to be getting somewhere. Particuarly some preconceptions that are not based on the evidence available.
 
spot on.

i studied hooks law at A-level and my understanding of mechanics and common sence dictates that a spring of x diameter with x lbs/inch will get stiffer the shorter it is.

think about it this way.

if you have a metal bar and twist it into a spring. that metal bar has a compression rate or 2lbs per inch. so for ever inch of spring being compressed it takes 2 lbs.

so the metal bar now has 10 coils in it all being moved 1 inch. thats 20lbs for that spring to move 10 inches.

right now lets take 5 coils out of it.

each coil now has to travel 2 inches to cover the same 10 inches of travel. so thats 40lbs needed to depress the spring the same distance.

the shorter the spring. the stiffer the spring.

why else would realy stiff springs have less tight coils than say a spring in a biro?
 
Yes it would be harder to compress it a percentage say 50% but it would still take the same amount to compress it one inch

A coil spring is not a torsion bar as the ends aren't clamped, compress a coil spring and watch the end bit rotate slightly
 
ollyc98 said:
Yes it would be harder to compress it a percentage say 50% but it would still take the same amount to compress it one inch

A coil spring is not a torsion bar as the ends aren't clamped, compress a coil spring and watch the end bit rotate slightly
Click to expand...

but if there are less coils, each coil has to move further, if the total length of the spring is compressed (say 2" for example).
but if there are more coils, each coil has to move a bit less (ie, it makes the spring softer)
 
But it doesn't have to move futher as the car is lowered, if there were less coils and the spring was lengthened to the original length then I can see your point but they aren't they are just shortened, it's like the suspension is compressed however much you lower it by
 
ollyc98 said:
But it doesn't have to move futher as the car is lowered, if there were less coils and the spring was lengthened to the original length then I can see your point but they aren't they are just shortened, it's like the suspension is compressed however much you lower it by
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noooo, if the 10" spring has 5 coils, and you bounce the car 5", each coil has had to move/bend 1".
but if the 10" spring has 10 coils and you bounce the car 5", each coil has only had to move/bend 1/2", and it would be a far softer spring
 
You're concentrating too much on the spring length, anyway this debate has driven me crazy, I'm off out back to shoot myself
 

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