Setup on the st

[Baz]

I was at a Rolling Road day yesterday at one of the most respected Tuners,mechanical engineers in the country Martin Tracy@ Wetward Engineering. . .Its been two years ince I had the car with him and he was impresed the car was still running the same engine!:wasntme:

After the run he said it was over fueling down low(still) and that the car could be setup extremely well if the supercharger was removed!!Overall he was happy with the figure and the fueling was safe

Discuss.. . .

 

[MicraFish]

I'd personally want to keep as is! Don't take away the supercharger, takes away the very essence of the SuperTurbo lol
Good to hear she's still doing well though

 

[linz0577]

still more power to be had then in the low end but i would be happy if mine was at the stage yours is at mate. dont think id like to take the sc off its the heart of the car really.

im not to upto date on tuning things like these but does he mean tune it without the sc and then put it back on again or something? if he means leave it off i wouldnt do it. even if it was faster without it! good luck which ever pat you choose mate.

 

[Baz]

I'd personally want to keep as is! Don't take away the supercharger, takes away the very essence of the SuperTurbo lol
Good to hear she's still doing well though

I know that end of it alright but at this stage its holding the car back.I must say I would miss the strange sounds from the car.

still more power to be had then in the low end but i would be happy if mine was at the stage yours is at mate. dont think id like to take the sc off its the heart of the car really.

im not to upto date on tuning things like these but does he mean tune it without the sc and then put it back on again or something? if he means leave it off i wouldnt do it. even if it was faster without it! good luck which ever pat you choose mate.

No he means remove it altogether and run the car as a turbo.In fairness I reckon it would drive alot nicer in genral especially motorway driving because the s/c turning on and off constantly can be a pain,where as if you run it as a turbo you can control the boost with throttle.

The other option is to keep the s/c and increase the displacement.

 

[Snikty]

After the run he said it was over fueling down low(still) and that the car could be setup extremely well if the supercharger was removed!!Overall he was happy with the figure and the fueling was safe

Discuss.. . .

As far as I've seen with mappings of the ST this is the biggest prob. Getting the fueling right in high and low end. A very simple and effective way to overcome this would be to go with one induction system and map the car to that.

The other option is to keep the s/c and increase the displacement.

I wouldnt do that if I were you, man. If you were to do anything based on increasing the displacement I would be more inclined to try and replace with/hybrid rebuild with an MA10. So just s/c an ma10 essentially.

I think a better option would be to get it smoothed up (so only a very slight increase in displacement) then treat it like an n/a build and get your compression right. The size of the bore on these engines is the reason you can push them harder. A cheap increase in compression would be from a thinner metal headgasket.

Having said that, be aware of what your car is already running. If you were to look at increasing your compression any you'd also need to serioulsy look at what end power figure you're looking at.. eg. If you ran it on your 1.2 bar setting after increasing your comp you could be at that 180bhp+ point where you need to seriously look at how much your internals can take. Truth is your car is sort of at that point where any more power could kill it if you dont make sure everything can handle it. If I were you I'd look at gettin a head gasket that can take 220+hp and aim for an end power figure of approx 175bhp @ 1.2bar (so a slightly thinner than stock h/g) and only run it on that when you really need the power. You would have to go custom internals to get a high enough comp on the 0.7 bar of the s/c to get those sort of power figures tho...but it would be totally lag free...which is the choice youd have to make big high end boost or constant boost.

Thats just my uneducated thoughts on the subject...

 

[Antony]

would it make any difference if you ran different sized S/C and turbo to the stock ones?

or only switching the sc on when and if you need it?


and as far as displacement is concerned. i have a sneaky feeling that ED is making an MA12ERT out of a few different engines... i may be wrong, but i wouldnt put it past him..lol

 

[Baz]

As far as I've seen with mappings of the ST this is the biggest prob. Getting the fueling right in high and low end. A very simple and effective way to overcome this would be to go with one induction system and map the car to that.



I wouldnt do that if I were you, man. If you were to do anything based on increasing the displacement I would be more inclined to try and replace with/hybrid rebuild with an MA10. So just s/c an ma10 essentially.

I think a better option would be to get it smoothed up (so only a very slight increase in displacement) then treat it like an n/a build and get your compression right. The size of the bore on these engines is the reason you can push them harder. A cheap increase in compression would be from a thinner metal headgasket.

Having said that, be aware of what your car is already running. If you were to look at increasing your compression any you'd also need to serioulsy look at what end power figure you're looking at.. eg. If you ran it on your 1.2 bar setting after increasing your comp you could be at that 180bhp+ point where you need to seriously look at how much your internals can take. Truth is your car is sort of at that point where any more power could kill it if you dont make sure everything can handle it. If I were you I'd look at gettin a head gasket that can take 220+hp and aim for an end power figure of approx 175bhp @ 1.2bar (so a slightly thinner than stock h/g) and only run it on that when you really need the power. You would have to go custom internals to get a high enough comp on the 0.7 bar of the s/c to get those sort of power figures tho...but it would be totally lag free...which is the choice youd have to make big high end boost or constant boost.

Thats just my uneducated thoughts on the subject...

I'll take that on board for the moment and write up a proper response later.

@Antony. . .Ed is building a ma12ert.
I already have a larger tubby and can adjust the s/c boost also but I removed that as it was playing havic with the afm

As far as I've seen with mappings of the ST this is the biggest prob. Getting the fueling right in high and low end. A very simple and effective way to overcome this would be to go with one induction system and map the car to that.



I wouldnt do that if I were you, man. If you were to do anything based on increasing the displacement I would be more inclined to try and replace with/hybrid rebuild with an MA10. So just s/c an ma10 essentially.

I think a better option would be to get it smoothed up (so only a very slight increase in displacement) then treat it like an n/a build and get your compression right. The size of the bore on these engines is the reason you can push them harder. A cheap increase in compression would be from a thinner metal headgasket.

Having said that, be aware of what your car is already running. If you were to look at increasing your compression any you'd also need to serioulsy look at what end power figure you're looking at.. eg. If you ran it on your 1.2 bar setting after increasing your comp you could be at that 180bhp+ point where you need to seriously look at how much your internals can take. Truth is your car is sort of at that point where any more power could kill it if you dont make sure everything can handle it. If I were you I'd look at gettin a head gasket that can take 220+hp and aim for an end power figure of approx 175bhp @ 1.2bar (so a slightly thinner than stock h/g) and only run it on that when you really need the power. You would have to go custom internals to get a high enough comp on the 0.7 bar of the s/c to get those sort of power figures tho...but it would be totally lag free...which is the choice youd have to make big high end boost or constant boost.

Thats just my uneducated thoughts on the subject...

My understanding of this is you mean using a ordinary ma10?No is the simple anwser for that one,and even an ma10et I know its 988cc as opposed to 930cc but the answer would still be No.

If I was to do it I reckon the way to go about it is,while keeping it reliable, remove the original block(complete with head)and pout it into storage.Then on the spare block, bore out the cylinder bores to 1235cc,custom forged pistons and rods if needed,keeping the original compression ratio of 7.7:1,Copper head gasket. Then use 295cc injectors from a starlet turbo,boost on the current turbo to 1.4-1.5bar depending on how it flows.
Also the thinner cylinder walls could be a problem so increasing the capacity of the cooling system with a bigger rad


Also stainless exhaust manifold and downpipe as I recken the standard item are choking my setup as it is.Ed was meant to get back to me on these but I understand he's to busy.

Aiming for around 180-190whp 220-230fwhp is realistic as its 120hp at the wheels now,its a torque fiqure I'm after really.If I was to do this I'd keep the s/c I think.
All that would be letting it down is engine management

 

[smidge]

feel free to call me soft, but its a rare 930cc... can you really expect to extract that much from it? if you've got a few spare motors and plenty of spares and they are cheap, then yeah go for it

without the supercharger doesn't really make it all that special, just another turbo'd hatchback with worse suspension than most other cars around it

 

[Snikty]

Antony: Yeah, I've had a look at more modern s/c of similar size and there are a few that could give a little more boost, be better equipped for higher hp and put less load on the engine. I think its a way of developing the engine that has great potential tbh. The stock turbo is capable of running as much boost as you could safely run so not really necessary to upgrade unless engine is built tough enough to put booste up much higher.

Apparently it is easy enough to put a magnetic clutch in to disengage the s/c manually.

Baz: If I'm reading that right then I think you would have a kaboom on your hands... Ok, I dont know much about MA series engines beyond the ma09 but I just mentioned the ma10 coz I knew it would definitely be interchangeble with it.

Look at this and compare the compressions, torque at rev ranges and then take into account the ma10et and ma09ert are the only ones with the additional compression from forced induction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_MA_engine#MA09ERT

Ok so if you had a ma12 head, with 7.7:1 with 1.4-1.5 bar I dont see how it could possibly survive for very long, it just wasnt built for it (note it runs with lower compression than a na ma10). I think if you were to go into minor detail to try and build a really tough hybrid you would possibly rebuild with a ma09 head and ma12 bottom half with custom internals...I dont know enough about ma engines to know if the ma12 bottom half would be viable though, i was just speculating. So by having a smaller bore on your head you have a more bulletproof head that can withstand a higher total internal compression, push to higher rev ranges and have the car in peak torque range more of the time.

Yes you can get more power with higher displacement but the benefits of being able to push the head harder can not be underestimated...a good example is a sr16ve vs sr20ve...the sr20ve will always blow before the sr16ve because they are built to the same dimensions so the bigger the bore the less solid it becomes. And due to the sr16ve being able to be pushed harder it doesnt lose much in end power figures.

I think the improved cooling system is a fantastic idea. I'd also be interested to see how you get on with those injectors. I've thought about looking at things like starlets and swifts for possible injector modifications later on but I wouldnt bother until after I do the ecu.

 

[Ed]

Antony: Yeah, I've had a look at more modern s/c of similar size and there are a few that could give a little more boost, be better equipped for higher hp and put less load on the engine.

Stock unit is rated to 150BHP. This is within its working range, 0-4000 rpm dont mistake this for 150bhp of max engine power. @ 6000rpm. Its a large supercharger for the engine, you don't need to change it for anything.

I think its a way of developing the engine that has great potential tbh. The stock turbo is capable of running as much boost as you could safely run so not really necessary to upgrade unless engine is built tough enough to put booste up much higher.

Stock turbo is not great above 140bhp. It gets inefficient.

Apparently it is easy enough to put a magnetic clutch in to disengage the s/c manually.

So easy that Nissan already have one on there for you haha! Just disconnect it if you don't want it to turn on!! One of the first things I did on my ST was put a switch on the feed to the clutch so that I could turn it off and save fuel on the motorway.

Baz: If I'm reading that right then I think you would have a kaboom on your hands... Ok, I dont know much about MA series engines beyond the ma09 but I just mentioned the ma10 coz I knew it would definitely be interchangeble with it.

The engines are good upto about 160bhp before in MY experience the headgaskets will fail. They will do upto about 180bhp on the internals before ringlands start to breakup.

Look at this and compare the compressions, torque at rev ranges and then take into account the ma10et and ma09ert are the only ones with the additional compression from forced induction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_MA_engine#MA09ERT

Totally different setups you cannot compare them that simply. Everything is different on it, ecu, manifold, turbo, intercooler etc etc etc...

Ok so if you had a ma12 head, with 7.7:1 with 1.4-1.5 bar I dont see how it could possibly survive for very long, it just wasnt built for it (note it runs with lower compression than a na ma10).

On what basis do you have any proof of this, rather than just an opinion. Justify why you think this may be the case, in stress/heat/load i.e. physical terms.

I think if you were to go into minor detail to try and build a really tough hybrid you would possibly rebuild with a ma09 head and ma12 bottom half with custom internals...I dont know enough about ma engines to know if the ma12 bottom half would be viable though, i was just speculating. So by having a smaller bore on your head you have a more bulletproof head that can withstand a higher total internal compression, push to higher rev ranges and have the car in peak torque range more of the time.

The head is totally not the limiting factor, ok in respect to the amount of airflow it would be BUT not as far as strength goes.

Yes you can get more power with higher displacement but the benefits of being able to push the head harder can not be underestimated...a good example is a sr16ve vs sr20ve...the sr20ve will always blow before the sr16ve because they are built to the same dimensions so the bigger the bore the less solid it becomes. And due to the sr16ve being able to be pushed harder it doesnt lose much in end power figures.

Not too sure about this comparison. The SR16 is much higher revving. RPM is a MUCH greater load on the pistons/rods than turbo boost is. I bet that the SR16 doesnt last as long if both were put on a track....

I think the improved cooling system is a fantastic idea. I'd also be interested to see how you get on with those injectors. I've thought about looking at things like starlets and swifts for possible injector modifications later on but I wouldnt bother until after I do the ecu.

Tuning is simply about heat management. After all heat is how and IC engine works. Anyway, you need to do analysis on the stock cooling system before assuming its not up to the job. Its fine upto 200bhp for road use, in my pratical exprience. I dont have enough track use to be able to accurately quanitfy that.

As far as I've seen with mappings of the ST this is the biggest prob. Getting the fueling right in high and low end.

Its not a problem at all. The ECU has separate distinct load points for each part of the cars operating parameters. They just both need setting up correctly. Its nothing like carbs where it could be difficult to get all load conditions optimised. On and ECU its no problem at all as you have 256 load points.

Ignoring the fact that ST has both turbo and supercharger the bottom line is the air only has one way into the engine (via TB) and so you only need to map against this and rpm (with compensations) to get it operating correctly under every condition.

 

[Ian]

I was under the impression both SR16 and SR20 ve's were 86mm bore. Just the shortened stroke of the SR16 is what reduces its displacement and goes for higher RPM.

 

[Baz]

feel free to call me soft, but its a rare 930cc... can you really expect to extract that much from it? if you've got a few spare motors and plenty of spares and they are cheap, then yeah go for it

without the supercharger doesn't really make it all that special, just another turbo'd hatchback with worse suspension than most other cars around it

Marty the car is just over 150hp @ the flywheel at the moment so with an extra 305cc and the same boost even it would have to be close to 200hp i estimate (I'm no facking expert like but I've had the car nearly 3years and have grown used to how the engine respones to mods)

Man I'll never sell this car so I mean I'll always have the original engine in storage and use the rest of the parts to build it,if I was to do it and I even have a spare car to test it in and run it in before putting the new engine in.Last thing I want is too put it in and go bang. . .

Antony: Yeah, I've had a look at more modern s/c of similar size and there are a few that could give a little more boost, be better equipped for higher hp and put less load on the engine. I think its a way of developing the engine that has great potential tbh. The stock turbo is capable of running as much boost as you could safely run so not really necessary to upgrade unless engine is built tough enough to put booste up much higher.

Apparently it is easy enough to put a magnetic clutch in to disengage the s/c manually.

Baz: If I'm reading that right then I think you would have a kaboom on your hands... Ok, I dont know much about MA series engines beyond the ma09 but I just mentioned the ma10 coz I knew it would definitely be interchangeble with it.

Look at this and compare the compressions, torque at rev ranges and then take into account the ma10et and ma09ert are the only ones with the additional compression from forced induction. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_MA_engine#MA09ERT

Ok so if you had a ma12 head, with 7.7:1 with 1.4-1.5 bar I dont see how it could possibly survive for very long, it just wasnt built for it (note it runs with lower compression than a na ma10). I think if you were to go into minor detail to try and build a really tough hybrid you would possibly rebuild with a ma09 head and ma12 bottom half with custom internals...I dont know enough about ma engines to know if the ma12 bottom half would be viable though, i was just speculating. So by having a smaller bore on your head you have a more bulletproof head that can withstand a higher total internal compression, push to higher rev ranges and have the car in peak torque range more of the time.

My plan is . . .to use an ma09block as it is esentially the same as ma10,ma12 the only difference is afaik the ma09 cylinder walls are 1mm thicker and the block is genrally stronger in everyway and the piston diameter is larger on the ma10,ma12,its not like a honda B-series engine where the B18 block from say an integra is taller than the B16 from a civic.
Both B-series use same diameter pistons the conrods are longer in the B18.

So again the plan is to use the ma09 block,crank,connecting rods and the ma09 head,custom forged pistons.

Starlet injector are top feed so will work fine(I've looked into it) all I need is the connector block from a spare starlet loom, have a spare ma09 injector loom there,
cut the block connetors off for the injectors and solder the starlet one's on

Simple. . .

and this engine is only going to rev to 7k as the turbo's relatively small but larger than standard and capable of 1.5bar all day long imo

This is a long term plan as in a year or two years so I can refine it a little with advice from a certain person. . .although he might not share his secrets:wasntme: I see he did'nt disagree with anything I've said yet.

I was under the impression both SR16 and SR20 ve's were 86mm bore. Just the shortened stroke of the SR16 is what reduces its displacement and goes for higher RPM.

Off topic mate,although Snikty did mention those engines its not what the discussion about so get out of my thread.

That is all

Baz

 

[Snikty]

Wow, thanks for responding Ed.

I actually do see a benefit to upgrading the s/c. Obviously its not going to be for any big end result in bhp gains but in terms of enhancing the natural design of the car there are gains to be made ie. more boost and less load on the engine in low end and for those motorway drives.

Good to know the turbo is less stable at +140bhp

OK sorry if I mislead with my post. Obviously I'm no authority on these things and did say I was merely speculating. But that is interesting to know the MA12 head is strong enough (I misinterpretted a previous post and thought you said it was not up for the job). My bad and obviously I'm not going to have proof...I've never tried to develop one...but thanks for explaining some of it for me.

So again the plan is to use the ma09 block,crank,connecting rods and the ma09 head,custom forged pistons.

Starlet injector are top feed so will work fine(I've looked into it) all I need is the connector block from a spare starlet loom, have a spare ma09 injector loom there,
cut the block connetors off for the injectors and solder the starlet one's on

Simple. . .

and this engine is only going to rev to 7k as the turbo's relatively small but larger than standard and capable of 1.5bar all day long imo

The plan sounds good man (Y) Can't wait too see it all unfold