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PollyMobiles Rebuild
- Thread starter pollyp
- Start date
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pollyp
Club Member
thought it might be useful to share my knowledge of the mysterious restriction in Nistune for ppl like stani or frank or even Ed who have/use nistune.
prob help nistune users from screaming at their laptop "Why wont the O key work!" or "Why can't I lower the raw value!" like I did before
prob help nistune users from screaming at their laptop "Why wont the O key work!" or "Why can't I lower the raw value!" like I did before
OP
OP
pollyp
Club Member
got my 8 new genuine stem seals
compression is now a steady 11.6 11.9 12.2 11.7 bars after 1293m.
drained oil.
cover off, still shiny inside, no milkshake under cover but oil is quite dark
while its hot, lets check the valve clearances.
(Too close, Close, Perfect, Loose, Too Loose)
INLET: 0.279 0.356 0.356 0.356 0.356 0.356 0.305 0.279
EX: 0.356 0.381 0.457 0.457 0.381 0.483 0.381 0.356
so cyl 1 & 4 had the lowest compression cos the valve clearances were too tight (valves kept open longer) so some air had leaked out.
once I correct these gaps I suspect the readings will shoot back up.
removed the timing chain cover and well there's ur problem
cos those 2 bolts were too long for the blind hole, it never pushed the plate onto the head during assembly to seal correctly (even the smear pattern is still there) so no wonder all the oil gushed out the gaping hole during high revs
compression is now a steady 11.6 11.9 12.2 11.7 bars after 1293m.
drained oil.
cover off, still shiny inside, no milkshake under cover but oil is quite dark
while its hot, lets check the valve clearances.
(Too close, Close, Perfect, Loose, Too Loose)
INLET: 0.279 0.356 0.356 0.356 0.356 0.356 0.305 0.279
EX: 0.356 0.381 0.457 0.457 0.381 0.483 0.381 0.356
so cyl 1 & 4 had the lowest compression cos the valve clearances were too tight (valves kept open longer) so some air had leaked out.
once I correct these gaps I suspect the readings will shoot back up.
removed the timing chain cover and well there's ur problem
cos those 2 bolts were too long for the blind hole, it never pushed the plate onto the head during assembly to seal correctly (even the smear pattern is still there) so no wonder all the oil gushed out the gaping hole during high revs
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If your stuck for any cam shims let me know Paul have a good selection here!
OP
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pollyp
Club Member
luvely jubbly paul
I just bout measured n calculated the required shim thicknesses to reach the ideal clearances. inlet shims 2-6 staying as they are.
I've got a set of shims from two stock engines in the garage to check out in abit.
If I can't find the required shims, I'll txt you some thicknesses to check if u have em
True, which will be Pauls basis for taking the stem seals approach instead of immediately pulling the engine apart. Worst case is he ends up with a better set of OEM seals instead of cheap knock-offs if it's another stripdown job.
All this certainly supports the consideration of a credible engine builder unless you are in the position to carry out no-frills re-builds at the drop of a hat.
All this certainly supports the consideration of a credible engine builder unless you are in the position to carry out no-frills re-builds at the drop of a hat.
OP
OP
pollyp
Club Member
I hope it fixes it too. I was reading a guide on installing stem seals which advises placing a tube or tape over the valve stem collet groove cos else the sharp edge could damage the seal.
Last yr, I just pushed the seal down the stem and this might've wrecked it abit?
No one local sells a stem seal tool so figure I'll buy a self-gripping nose pliers and mod it
OP
OP
pollyp
Club Member
so brought a long nose lock plier for £8.39 (better than £15-80 for a slide hammer seal puller)
the jaws were abit too slack so I tried heating it, and smack the rivets with a hammer to crush it tighter. nope, has no effect or it all just binds. need more accurate adjustment of the pivot joints, so I grind the rivets out. squeeze the frame till the jaws fit snug
and nut/bolts to tighten it accurately
the jaws hold a stem seal like this, notice the flat parallel fingers only touch a tiny bit of the seal, it will slip off too easily
using a grinding stone of similar size
I grind a matching contour in the jaws to hold the seal more effectively
grinded the excess edges off to clear the valve bucket hole
rather than just squeeze, pull & wriggle the seal out and risk damaging the stem, I incorporate a sort of slide hammer effect by tethering a weight aligned with the pliers jaw opening. tried string initially but snaps easily so found a much stronger bicycle cable tied to a big hammer
and this is the process
the jaws were abit too slack so I tried heating it, and smack the rivets with a hammer to crush it tighter. nope, has no effect or it all just binds. need more accurate adjustment of the pivot joints, so I grind the rivets out. squeeze the frame till the jaws fit snug
and nut/bolts to tighten it accurately
the jaws hold a stem seal like this, notice the flat parallel fingers only touch a tiny bit of the seal, it will slip off too easily
using a grinding stone of similar size
I grind a matching contour in the jaws to hold the seal more effectively
grinded the excess edges off to clear the valve bucket hole
rather than just squeeze, pull & wriggle the seal out and risk damaging the stem, I incorporate a sort of slide hammer effect by tethering a weight aligned with the pliers jaw opening. tried string initially but snaps easily so found a much stronger bicycle cable tied to a big hammer
and this is the process
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h701micra
Deactivated Account
Just like paul you've got the msc behind you. My advice.. get an engine and strip it down. You'll learn alot and there's no time like the presentThis thread is absolutely awesome! Been following it for a while now, despite only just creating an account
Keep up the good work and good luck!
OP
OP
pollyp
Club Member
could be. the seal lip looked intact but maybe the spring collar was too loose?
h701micra
Deactivated Account
A road test will confirm it for us
OP
OP
pollyp
Club Member
Updates at 2am!!
Fingers and toes are crossed Paul!
yea, came home late from work so only had few hrs and really wanted to finish bonding the covers on
OP
OP
pollyp
Club Member
would be nice but not worth the cost when the £8.50 DIY tool achieves the same result and rarely use it
OP
OP
pollyp
Club Member
This thread is absolutely awesome! Been following it for a while now, despite only just creating an account
Keep up the good work and good luck!
thank you for ur support Calum
OP
OP
pollyp
Club Member
learn by reading and doing and getting stuck in. that's how I started off
OP
OP
pollyp
Club Member
A road test will confirm it for us
yea thats the job for tonight once it's up n running, drive around to clear the system up and then we'll see on the next stone cold start whether its all worked.
h701micra
Deactivated Account
I look forward to it all
I think I will buy a spare 1.3 block to work on. I am scared to mess around with the Super S I just bought because it is running flawlessly. It would be nice to have a block to work on where I don't need to worry about breaking it
It would be also be nice to see how the cams and stuff fit together and maybe rebuild the engine and clean everything. I'll post it up on my thread if I ever get round to it! Thanks for the suggestions 
OP
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pollyp
Club Member
21st June
so inlet valve stem seals replaced, timing chain side & top cover resealed, valve clearances corrected and oil/filter changed.
she cold cranks abit rich but fine. small poof of smoke from the residue oil then idles clear initially.
BUT when I hold revs up (high vacuum) while its still cold it smokes alot, dammit.
and now whenever I apply any sort of throttle it smokes continously depending on amount of throttle.
very low or no smoke during coasting or idling.
pistons still half damp but dry compression with the corrected valve clearances are 11.8 11.7 12.0 12.0 bars at 1300 miles, perfect
so lets continue the hard runs to see if the wet cylinder & smoking on boost goes.
nope, she still friggin smokes continuously whenever on boost and pistons still damp/soaked so we eliminated that oil isn't entering via the inlet stem or pcv.
the only single cause will be the 2nd/oil rings
did a wet/dry test at 1315miles
dry 11.7 11.8 11.9 11.9 bars
wet 14.2 13.9 13.8 14.1 bars
pretty much perfect even compression after a hard hot run
continued the normal drive to see if the low revs affect the oily cylinders. one of the widebands copper heatsink fins fractured off at 1:04
pistons still half damp and smokes on boost. tried to point the front camera forwards under the car but it didn't record
continue blasting through the country. was running low on fuel at 20:00 so headed home, completely blinded by the low setting sun
dry compression after a gentle run was 11.3 11.3 11.8 11.6 bars
compression history at the mo shows the corrected shims made the compression very even & high when the pistons hot but slightly lower when its cooler after a cruise. see what happens later on
here's the copper fin that broke off
got new manifold gasket so I can remove the turbo n inspect the stems for oil leakage
frank u think I'll be ok with resuming the normal driving till I use the last 3L of the 20w50 mineral oil then change over to my usual 10w40 gtx semi-synth, see if it still smokes and then take apart and stretch the oil rings till it drags +5kg and hopefully stops the oil leak?
dry compression is good and even but is 2bars below the wet test.
also cos the 2nd ring is like a secondary oil scraper above the main oil scraper, if both of them can't hold back the oil and compression is that far off the ideal wet test, maybe all the rings are actually fooked?
another thought is could it be a design fault such as insufficient drain holes for the oil rings?
so inlet valve stem seals replaced, timing chain side & top cover resealed, valve clearances corrected and oil/filter changed.
she cold cranks abit rich but fine. small poof of smoke from the residue oil then idles clear initially.
BUT when I hold revs up (high vacuum) while its still cold it smokes alot, dammit.
and now whenever I apply any sort of throttle it smokes continously depending on amount of throttle.
very low or no smoke during coasting or idling.
pistons still half damp but dry compression with the corrected valve clearances are 11.8 11.7 12.0 12.0 bars at 1300 miles, perfect
so lets continue the hard runs to see if the wet cylinder & smoking on boost goes.
nope, she still friggin smokes continuously whenever on boost and pistons still damp/soaked so we eliminated that oil isn't entering via the inlet stem or pcv.
the only single cause will be the 2nd/oil rings
did a wet/dry test at 1315miles
dry 11.7 11.8 11.9 11.9 bars
wet 14.2 13.9 13.8 14.1 bars
pretty much perfect even compression after a hard hot run
continued the normal drive to see if the low revs affect the oily cylinders. one of the widebands copper heatsink fins fractured off at 1:04
pistons still half damp and smokes on boost. tried to point the front camera forwards under the car but it didn't record
continue blasting through the country. was running low on fuel at 20:00 so headed home, completely blinded by the low setting sun
dry compression after a gentle run was 11.3 11.3 11.8 11.6 bars
compression history at the mo shows the corrected shims made the compression very even & high when the pistons hot but slightly lower when its cooler after a cruise. see what happens later on
here's the copper fin that broke off
got new manifold gasket so I can remove the turbo n inspect the stems for oil leakage
frank u think I'll be ok with resuming the normal driving till I use the last 3L of the 20w50 mineral oil then change over to my usual 10w40 gtx semi-synth, see if it still smokes and then take apart and stretch the oil rings till it drags +5kg and hopefully stops the oil leak?
dry compression is good and even but is 2bars below the wet test.
also cos the 2nd ring is like a secondary oil scraper above the main oil scraper, if both of them can't hold back the oil and compression is that far off the ideal wet test, maybe all the rings are actually fooked?
another thought is could it be a design fault such as insufficient drain holes for the oil rings?
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frank
Club Member
yes paul, you will literally be able to "feel" the rings scraping the bore when you get that expander tension right (i usually fit the pistons upside down, with just the oil control rings fitted)
we have been having problems on our kart engines too, the later honda engines have thinner oil control rings and are wearing out after 18 months look !
and i have to stretch the expander on the new rings to account for the bore wear
(i usually fit the pistons upside down, with just the oil control rings fitted)we have been having problems on our kart engines too, the later honda engines have thinner oil control rings and are wearing out after 18 months look !
and i have to stretch the expander on the new rings to account for the bore wear
frank
Club Member
the oil control rings are very thin and weak stani, so its those little feet at the bottom/inside of the expander that do all the pushing
if they are,nt forcing the 2 rings against the bore, then the rings dont make contact all around the bore
yes paul, you will literally be able to "feel" the rings scraping the bore when you get that expander tension right
we have been having problems on our kart engines too, the later honda engines have thinner oil control rings and are wearing out after 18 months look !
and i have to stretch the expander on the new rings to account for the bore wear
View attachment 23601
pollyp congratulations.you have great knowledge and magical hands.i have read your threads and i have copied some of your mods with succees so far but...i have bought a set of ma10 acl main (crankhaft) bearings.and a set of ga13 conrod bearings.my engine is a cg13 1992 uk model.i have put the down end crankshaft bearings and i did a notch like yours in order to make them fit.the upper crankshaft bearings not allign 100 percent(about half mm off) with the oil passage of the block and furthermore my block has just one oil passage and not 2 like the one you show in the pics that you use ma bearings.is there something more to worry about or do?i have tighten and the crankshaft turns sweet no play or so...also i was told that ga13 conrod bearings fit the cg13.is it correct?thanks so much for your help
OP
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pollyp
Club Member
22nd June
since the camera phone can't capture my borescope screen properly, I managed to hook its video feed into my laptop to give u this footage.
with a cold engine lets look inside the cylinders and bores.
all the pistons are 1/2 damp,
bores ok, noticed a slight machining error. cyl3-4 has a horizontal groove like some dirt in the hone stones while the machine was briefly stationary.
slight vertical scoring on the exhaust sides.
inlet mani kinda dry. plugs just white.
yet this is the cold start every time. smokey start and struggles, then clears
compression after warmup is 11.2 11.5 11.9 11.7 bars
lets drive to the north york moors
exhaust seems clear most the time
since the camera phone can't capture my borescope screen properly, I managed to hook its video feed into my laptop to give u this footage.
with a cold engine lets look inside the cylinders and bores.
all the pistons are 1/2 damp,
bores ok, noticed a slight machining error. cyl3-4 has a horizontal groove like some dirt in the hone stones while the machine was briefly stationary.
slight vertical scoring on the exhaust sides.
inlet mani kinda dry. plugs just white.
yet this is the cold start every time. smokey start and struggles, then clears
compression after warmup is 11.2 11.5 11.9 11.7 bars
lets drive to the north york moors
exhaust seems clear most the time
OP
OP
pollyp
Club Member
lets have a blast through the luvely york moors, slight misty smoke on boost
driving back up towards redcar
through redcar. someone videoing and trying to grab my attention at 31:00
compression after all that was 11.7 11.7 11.9 11.7 bar and still 1/2 damp
I highly doubt this damp issue will go away on its own
driving back up towards redcar
through redcar. someone videoing and trying to grab my attention at 31:00
compression after all that was 11.7 11.7 11.9 11.7 bar and still 1/2 damp
I highly doubt this damp issue will go away on its own
OP
OP
pollyp
Club Member
23rd June
its been raining heavily tday and I've lost the plastic air filter shield so made one from kitchen foil
also thought the pcv maybe too restrictive so I plumbed both the engine top breather and the crankcase breather into a bottle like this and plugged up the TB pcv pipe so now the crankcase breathes totally freely and lets see if this affects the damp piston
so on cold start once again it smoke initially then clears abit
went for a drive through the country
pistons still half damp and here you see the crankcase port emits a high amount of water vapour from the blowby.
the top breather port only showing a drop of oil vapour.
compression is a nice 11.8 11.8 12.0 12.0 bars
so I went home,
left it idling for awhile as I checked the base timing for baguette and then suddenly the exhaust plooms out thick oily smoke gassing the neighbours
this video only shows the first few secs while its misty but it began to rain and my neighbour distracted me requiring help with freeing a seized caliper guide pin on his clio.
after a min it began smoking so will try video that soon.
hold revs up and it still stays for awhile and maybe clears slightly.
let it idle with the slight mist, wait 30-60s and the mist turns to thick smoke WTF
at this point of the day I'm fuming with a migraine and just wanna give up screaming.
the symptoms kinda indicates stem seals as the vacuum during idle sucks enough oil to produce a thick smog but I just replaced the inlet seals :/
if it sucks that much oil in through the inlet stems to smoke that badly then I'd prob notice a big pool of oil in the pistons. so while its smoking, stop engine, pull plugs out and urm nope, pistons look exactly the same 1/2 damp as before.
so this oil burning maybe coming from after the chambers such as exhaust stem seals or the turbos turbine seal?
I think I remember baguette with the black SR turbo who posted a vid of his smoky turbo and when mine plooms smoke after prolonged idle, it looks just like his. so it might be a turbo issue which prob explains the smoke on full boost?
edit: just did a search and it was a footage of Martins super S black turbo that I saw smoking
lets do the easy process of elimination before labouring time on ripping the engine apart.
so I think the next task is to swap back to a SHTOCK exhaust to eliminate the turbo source.
if it stops smoking at WOT/prolonged idle then its a turbo issue (still prob won't solve the wet piston).
if all the exhaust stems appear wet then we replace those stem seals and try again.
if even the stock exhaust still smokes then its an internal oil ring issue and must begin the time consuming engine ripping.
its been raining heavily tday and I've lost the plastic air filter shield so made one from kitchen foil
also thought the pcv maybe too restrictive so I plumbed both the engine top breather and the crankcase breather into a bottle like this and plugged up the TB pcv pipe so now the crankcase breathes totally freely and lets see if this affects the damp piston
so on cold start once again it smoke initially then clears abit
went for a drive through the country
pistons still half damp and here you see the crankcase port emits a high amount of water vapour from the blowby.
the top breather port only showing a drop of oil vapour.
compression is a nice 11.8 11.8 12.0 12.0 bars
so I went home,
left it idling for awhile as I checked the base timing for baguette and then suddenly the exhaust plooms out thick oily smoke gassing the neighbours
this video only shows the first few secs while its misty but it began to rain and my neighbour distracted me requiring help with freeing a seized caliper guide pin on his clio.
after a min it began smoking so will try video that soon.
hold revs up and it still stays for awhile and maybe clears slightly.
let it idle with the slight mist, wait 30-60s and the mist turns to thick smoke WTF
at this point of the day I'm fuming with a migraine and just wanna give up screaming.
the symptoms kinda indicates stem seals as the vacuum during idle sucks enough oil to produce a thick smog but I just replaced the inlet seals :/
if it sucks that much oil in through the inlet stems to smoke that badly then I'd prob notice a big pool of oil in the pistons. so while its smoking, stop engine, pull plugs out and urm nope, pistons look exactly the same 1/2 damp as before.
so this oil burning maybe coming from after the chambers such as exhaust stem seals or the turbos turbine seal?
I think I remember baguette with the black SR turbo who posted a vid of his smoky turbo and when mine plooms smoke after prolonged idle, it looks just like his. so it might be a turbo issue which prob explains the smoke on full boost?
edit: just did a search and it was a footage of Martins super S black turbo that I saw smoking
lets do the easy process of elimination before labouring time on ripping the engine apart.
so I think the next task is to swap back to a SHTOCK exhaust to eliminate the turbo source.
if it stops smoking at WOT/prolonged idle then its a turbo issue (still prob won't solve the wet piston).
if all the exhaust stems appear wet then we replace those stem seals and try again.
if even the stock exhaust still smokes then its an internal oil ring issue and must begin the time consuming engine ripping.
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OP
OP
pollyp
Club Member
found the video of martinb's smoking turbo that I recall.
http://micra.org.uk/threads/martboy21s-new-black-super-s.41646/page-13#post-455468
looking at it, mine's not smoking quite as bad as that during prolonged idle but will keep digging
http://micra.org.uk/threads/martboy21s-new-black-super-s.41646/page-13#post-455468
looking at it, mine's not smoking quite as bad as that during prolonged idle but will keep digging
frank
Club Member
our karts do that too paul, i would do you a vid but we have no smokers atm
(they,ve all been re-ringed)
Belly93
to turbo or new lump :/ hmmm
is that a snap on borescope?
Impressive bit of kit eh!
Belly93
to turbo or new lump :/ hmmm
i wasgoing to ask if there anygood, i been looking at getting one
?
OP
OP
pollyp
Club Member
indeed it is a snap on BK5500 inspection scope Belly and yes it's been totally invaluable for looking inside of anything including bores etc to identify/verify problems before committing time n effort taking it apart and I definitely recommend it. plus you can record the video out feed like me to share footage.
brought mine new on ebay for £200 which is a steal for what u get
found a listing here
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Snap-On-B...iagnostic_Tools_Equipment&hash=item20d4791f54
brought mine new on ebay for £200 which is a steal for what u get
found a listing here
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Snap-On-B...iagnostic_Tools_Equipment&hash=item20d4791f54
