Please help me learn ...

frank said:
its the "plugs" bit that is confusing hazara, if the engine was lumpy and they removed #1 coil lead and there was no difference ? then thats a missfiring cylinder (for whatever reason, ie, sparkplug/injector etc)
unburnt fuel will indicate a loss of spark, i think you need to remove the 4 sparkplugs and post some pics up really
Click to expand...

Very many thanks frank,

The spark-plugs are new and I don't have any tools to open them. When the guy in garage opened one of them to show me and proof it is new, the end of it was covered with black smoke a sign of unburnt fuel I think.

Can you see anything abnormal in the test results that indecats any other faulty part?
What other parameters do I have to look for when testing?

Regards
 
frank said:
you need to clarify whether it was the sparkplugs or lambda sensors that were sooty black first really mate, and the t/b solder trick only applies to the pre-coilpack (pre 2000) k11,s
Click to expand...

Sorry Frank I did not reply your question properly.

When the guy in garage, removed the spark plug, the end of the spark plug was covered in smoke!

Regards
 
a long reach tommy bar plug socket is £5 well spent hazara :) and a sooty sparkplug is a sign of overfueling, you need to check if its just the 1 cyl that has a problem really, (4 sooty sparkplugs will be different issue).
if it is 1 cyl only, then try swapping 2 coils over, or swap 2 injectors
 
frank said:
a long reach tommy bar plug socket is £5 well spent hazara :) and a sooty sparkplug is a sign of overfueling, you need to check if its just the 1 cyl that has a problem really, (4 sooty sparkplugs will be different issue).
if it is 1 cyl only, then try swapping 2 coils over, or swap 2 injectors
Click to expand...

Very many thanks frank,

I did not know what to buy, because it was very deep! I found this one in amazon will it work? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Laser-0247-...9Q/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1352052442&sr=8-15

What about this one:http://www.amazon.co.uk/Laser-3587-...1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1352052738&sr=1-11

It will be delivered on Tuesday, if I order it now. I think I need sooner than that. Where else to get one of those?

Regards
 
frank said:
k11 sparkplugs are usually 16mm mate, this is the cheapest but not exactly local :) http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BRAND-NEW...42?pt=UK_Motorcycle_Parts&hash=item23245f66ae
Click to expand...
Very many thanks frank,

That one is being posted from outside the UK and will be delivered next Monday the earliest. I will try this one from amazon(http://www.amazon.co.uk/Champion-sp..._2?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1352055839&sr=1-2) which is 16 mm. Alternatively I will go to the town or in ASDA or B&Q. Now I know what size I am looking for 16mm.
 
UPDATE:

Took the car to a different garage. The guy in the garage, opened the plugs on my request and all the plugs had signs of over-fueling. He cleaned the throttle body with some spray thing. The car was running stable at that moment. We had wait a lot for the car to cool down and it was reasonable cool but not cold. The revving stabled down and was running stable.

This morning started the car started fine. The RMP was 1300+ and Short term fuel bank was 0.0 % and the long Term Fuel was -5.5%. As the engine was warming up and the RMP was settling dow to 960, the short term fuel bank1 was going up and down it was -25.3 and the RMP gone up 1080, 1120 and down again to 820 and fluctuating. There was not lots of smell from back tail, but there some.

The diagnosis from the garage man was that there is either an air leak after the throttle body or a loose wiring.

Any ideas?

Any informative, ideas suggestions are appreciated. I don't want to spend money unnecessarily.

Please help

Regards
 
it sounds like the usual bosch maf problem to me (loads of threads on here) have you tried driving it with the maf disconnected ?
 
Hello every one,

Can some establish a link between the services and the behavior/problem now?

Deductive logic tells me that, since the Engine Management Light (EML) gone OFF every time it came ON after tinkering/missing about with the spark plug or coil connecting it. It is possible that driving with EML On for about 180 miles may have caused some secondary damage.

If I can establish the link, I will make the garage pay all or some sixpences to fix it properly with some specialists.

Please help.

Regards
 
Update:

Called Nissan dealer in Manchester and told them of the problem. They guy said it might be the timing chain and told me that for a definite diagnosis I have book it in and they will charge me £65.

Any Ideas?

Please help

Regards
 
Hazara,

Well, I´m not a Nissan expert (just one “MOT-man” from Scandinavia), but I was thinking…
I wouldn´t check first those throttle body, timing chain and catalyst systems. I could check that MAF, take out cable of it, then some driving. How it works without MAF?
If there´s still poor idlind (non-stable), then would check again spark plugs and especially coils/leads. Could also try to hear engine if there´s some extra sighing to find out air leaks (I think garage mates would have found it already)
Sometimes poor idling (whatever the issue is) causes “wrong” fault codes to ecu, like those you´ve had (P0110-intake air temperature circuit malfunction, P0420-catalyst system efficiency below threshold (bank1).
I have noticed that MAF often doesn´t leave any fault codes.
 
frank said:
nah, i very much doubt if its the chain :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Thanks frank,

I could not open/removed the MAF. In Haynes book (4A.12, prargraph 60-63) it explains how remove the wires and test them. I could not figure out which wire to remove. There are more than two wires connected to the throttle body.

I was searching and stumbled on this one http://www.micra.org.uk/threads/k11-throttle-body.39195/ the last post is about the timing. Any ideas?

Would it be possible to guide me through?

Regards
 
Japi said:
Hazara,

Well, I´m not a Nissan expert (just one “MOT-man” from Scandinavia), but I was thinking…
I wouldn´t check first those throttle body, timing chain and catalyst systems. I could check that MAF, take out cable of it, then some driving. How it works without MAF?
If there´s still poor idlind (non-stable), then would check again spark plugs and especially coils/leads. Could also try to hear engine if there´s some extra sighing to find out air leaks (I think garage mates would have found it already)
Sometimes poor idling (whatever the issue is) causes “wrong” fault codes to ecu, like those you´ve had (P0110-intake air temperature circuit malfunction, P0420-catalyst system efficiency below threshold (bank1).
I have noticed that MAF often doesn´t leave any fault codes.
Click to expand...

Very many thanks Japi for participation and reply.

As I have explained to frank, the unfortunate is that I could not remove the MAF. It is a bit confusing. There at least three wires connected to the side of throttle body and more than 2 pipes. Which one is MAF and how to to remove it?

I will try the idea once I am confidant on how to do it.

Regards
 
Japi said:
Would this help?:

http://www.micra.org.uk/threads/maf...2000-k11-micra-please-help.44288/#post-458817
Click to expand...

Thanks Japi for reply. I've gone through that link before but could not figure out. The link provided by frank in that link is not showing anything about removing MAF. Although one of the post is mentioning it is easy but I could not find it.

I've looked, at throttle body, and there are several connections to it. I am not sure which is MAF. To make the even more complicated, there several pipes connected to it too.

Regards
 
I think it´s that on top. Others please correct me if I´m wrong. My K11:s not seen parts like this :confused:
throttle_body_micra_bosch-jpg.18602
 
Japi said:
I think it´s that on top. Others please correct me if I´m wrong. My K11:s not seen parts like this :confused:
Click to expand...

Very many thanks Japi it did realy help.

I removed the MAF and started the engine, it was lumpy the same as the first I have noticed the problem. I have done a reading and here is the result.
(sorry could past the tabular data)

When the car started from the cold with no MAF, is stalled at first and had to restart. Than it was going up and down. But when the warmed up there was not much difference wit or without MAF.

When engine warm, there was some vibration and the RPM was a little bit up and down with MAF disconnected. But was stable with MAF connected.

PS: There was not a problem when in motorway speed. The idle issue was mainly when starting in the morning and when at slow speed. The sound of engine and the vibration was gone when the guy in 2nd garage cleaned/sprayed something in throttle body/MAF sensor.

I will take car for a drive latter and see what it looks like with out MAF.

Regards
 
Update:

Just came back from a test drive. I drove 5.3 miles with MAF and 4.3 miles with MAF disconnected. With the drive was a bit heavy and the car sound was uncomfortable while the drive without MAF was very light, responsive and the car sound was better. At the very last minutes it through P0100 and P0110.

After and before the drive I have take some readings. The resuls are as follows:

Key one but engine not started:
Absolute Throttle Position:= 7.8
Engine RPM:= 0
Timing Advance:= 63.5
Air flow Rate (MAF):= 0.00 g/s
Fuel System status:= Closed Loop
Short term Fuel Trim:=+25
Long term Fuel Trim:= -23.4
Intake Temperature:= 24 c
Coolant Temperature:= 23 c
02 Sensor1, Bank1:= 0.210
02 Sensor2, Bank 1:=0.295

Engine started before driving:
Absolute Throttle Position:= 7.8
Engine RPM:= 1080, 1320, 1240, 1400 it was up and down
Timing Advance:= 22.5 -16.5
Air flow Rate (MAF):= 12.42
Fuel System status:= Closed Loop
Short term Fuel Trim:=-25
Long term Fuel Trim:= -23.4
Intake Temperature:= 22 c
Coolant Temperature:= 38 c
02 Sensor1, Bank1:= 0.930
02 Sensor2, Bank 1:=0.765

After 5.3 miles drive
Absolute Throttle Position:= 7.8
Engine RPM:= 640
Timing Advance:= 14
Air flow Rate (MAF):= 1.54 g/s
Fuel System status:= Closed Loop
Short term Fuel Trim:= -1.6 - 0.8
Long term Fuel Trim:= -14.8
Intake Temperature:= 42 c
Coolant Temperature:= 94 c
02 Sensor1, Bank1:= 0.175 - 440
02 Sensor2, Bank 1:=0.830

Engine warm, without MAF before driving:
Absolute Throttle Position:= 7.8
Engine RPM:= 760
Timing Advance:= 14- 12.8
Air flow Rate (MAF):
Fuel System status:= Closed Loop
Short term Fuel Trim:=+7.8
Long term Fuel Trim:= -14.2
Intake Temperature:=
Coolant Temperature:= 84 c
02 Sensor1, Bank1:= 0.714
02 Sensor2, Bank 1:=0.645

After Driving without MAF for 4.3 miles
Absolute Throttle Position:= 7.8
Engine RPM:= 640
Timing Advance:= 14
Air flow Rate (MAF):=
Fuel System status:= Closed Loop
Short term Fuel Trim:=+5, -- +18 -- +14.2 -- +12
Long term Fuel Trim:= -14.8
Intake Temperature:= 24 c
Coolant Temperature:= 91 c
02 Sensor1, Bank1:= 0.740, 0.335, 0.115
02 Sensor2, Bank 1:=0.840

Frank and Japi, I hope can analyze this data and suggest something.

Regards
 
frank said:
failed 2nd lambda maybe ? (common fault on the coilpack k11,s iirc)
Click to expand...

Very many thanks frank for the quick reply.

So I have to replace lambda sensor? Does it have any variations, different makes, performance superiority on different make/models?

Any pointers?

Regards
 
Lambda could be the reason or not. These electric part problems are often confusing :(. Is it possible to you to have gas analysis measured at some place? (Tested when idling and >2000rpm). It could help finding out what the problem is...but I´ve seen also cases that gas analysis says ok, but lambda is broken (usually in cars with more than one lambda). You told earlier that spark plug was black -so the mixture might be rich. I think one possible failure could be intake air temperature sensor P0110(or lambda, maf etc.).

Has anyone tested lambda sensors, what kind of resistances there should be (at different temperatures) ?
 
Japi said:
Has anyone tested lambda sensors, what kind of resistances there should be (at different temperatures) ?
Click to expand...
they,re easy to test, from the signal wire (0 to 1v) and i think the rear one should reflect the signals from the front one @ wot or lift (albeit delayed) and should read a constant .4 to .5v @ cruise (if the cat is working ok)
 
frank said:
they,re easy to test, from the signal wire (0 to 1v) and i think the rear one should reflect the signals from the front one @ wot or lift (albeit delayed) and should read a constant .4 to .5v @ cruise (if the cat is working ok)
Click to expand...

I will take the car to the garage for checking it and replace the sensor.

Is there a difference between the universal or OEM sensor, apart from the price?

Nissan quoted my the 2nd one at £185.77 while a universal one will cost £30. What a difference!?

Regards
 
Update:

I have tested the 02 sensors, the way pollyp sugested in this post:http://www.micra.org.uk/threads/lamda-sensor.53802/

The result was that: 1st/front 02 sensor was moving up and down but very regulary while the 2nd/rear one was stable at 0.8

Can some one tel me it is working or gone?

I took it to garage but he did not have enough, he was suggesting that there is some air leak somewhere.

Regards
 
a stable .8v does,nt sound right to me
frank said:
they,re easy to test, from the signal wire (0 to 1v) and i think the rear one should reflect the signals from the front one @ wot or lift (albeit delayed) and should read a constant .4 to .5v @ cruise (if the cat is working ok)
Click to expand...
 
Hazara said:
Update:

I have tested the 02 sensors, the way pollyp sugested in this post:http://www.micra.org.uk/threads/lamda-sensor.53802/

The result was that: 1st/front 02 sensor was moving up and down but very regulary while the 2nd/rear one was stable at 0.8

Can some one tel me it is working or gone?

I took it to garage but he did not have enough, he was suggesting that there is some air leak somewhere.

Regards
Click to expand...

sounds correct.

few forums saying the pre-cat sensor should go up/down very quickly providing a feedback loop to the fuel injector, while the post-cat is mearly to monitor the cats condition and should be a constant leaner reading from lack of o2 if the cat is burning up all the harmful gasses.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=895763
http://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/what-does-the-rear-o2-sensor-do.html
http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=293323
 
pollyp said:
sounds correct.

few forums saying the pre-cat sensor should go up/down very quickly providing a feedback loop to the fuel injector, while the post-cat is mearly to monitor the cats condition and should be a constant leaner reading from lack of o2 if the cat is burning up all the harmful gasses.

http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=895763
http://www.matthewsvolvosite.com/what-does-the-rear-o2-sensor-do.html
http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=293323
Click to expand...
a constant leaner reading wont be .8v tho eh paul
 
Hazara said:
Update:

I have tested the 02 sensors, the way pollyp sugested in this post:http://www.micra.org.uk/threads/lamda-sensor.53802/

The result was that: 1st/front 02 sensor was moving up and down but very regulary while the 2nd/rear one was stable at 0.8

Can some one tel me it is working or gone?

I took it to garage but he did not have enough, he was suggesting that there is some air leak somewhere.

Regards
Click to expand...

I read few forums also but I ain´t yet certain how that second sensor really works, does ecu do anything with that info what sensor gives. There was some thinking that it should be more stable than first sensor, but was yours stuck in 0.8? You can test airleaks by spraying something to intake manifold/head connection point, for examble water, start pilot, wd40. Idling should change a bit if there´s an air leak, you can also check hoses and their connections, try to push brakepedal - is there any changes for idling to find air leaks in the brake servo (I doubt that a bit, but never know). Did they take emission test at the garage, if did, could you tell results?
 
Hello every one,

Update:

I have changed the MAF sensor, reduced the fule consumption but did not cure the problem completely. I have changed the pulgs and it seems it working greate. Just came back from Birmingham and did 216 miles for 26 litter of petrol. Now smoke, no hesitation and nothing. I think the fule economy is due to MAF sensor which I bought from the ebay for 29.99.

I think the problem was plugs all along. The plug the garage used was NGK made in France!! I bought a set from Nissan dealer which was an NGK made in Japan. As soon as I changed the plugs the sound of the car improved and so was the vibration which was smoothed. I have also put some fule treatment to clean the system from the smoke etc.

I have to thank every one who sujested any ideas in this regards. Very many thanks.

Regards
 
did ya check the plug gaps between the french and japanese NGK?
the gap affects how well it combusts/runs.

i find that some aftermarket replacement parts generally require abit more effort to adjust/tweak to fit a certain application (prob same part used across a range of cars?) whereas dealer parts are already configured to specifically fit the intended model.
 
pollyp said:
did ya check the plug gaps between the french and japanese NGK?

the gap affects how well it combusts/runs.

i find that some aftermarket replacement parts generally require abit more effort to adjust/tweak to fit a certain application (prob same part used across a range of cars?) whereas dealer parts are already configured to specifically fit the intended model.
Click to expand...

Thanks pollyp for reply.

Unfortunately not.

Do have any idea how improve the MPG on this it seems it is not very good.

What I have noticed when changing the MAF was that I has been changed before as well and was not the original OEM MAF. I think the previous owner sold it due to its low MPG.

I cam accross, a while ago but can't find it now, that micra MAP is replaceable with an other model.

Do you think is it true? What about these one http://www.maf-shop.com/en/air-mass-meter/nissan/?Currency=GBPs

Do you any will work/

Regards
 
as with any vehicle all the components have to work within spec and efficiently to achieve the best milage.

alot of variables can degrade economy:
blocked air filter, faulty MAF, stuck IAV, seized waxstat fast idle mechanism (throttle stuck open slightly), leaking injectors, plug gaps/fouled plug, faulty o2 feedback, major misfire, faulty coolant temp reading (stuck in cold start fast idle mode?), thermostat stuck open (wasting heat energy), incorrect ignition timing, collapsed cat, binding brakes, underinflated tyres, electrical drain (especially prolonged use of lights n heating during winter), driving style

check the easy stuff first like air filter, condition & gaps of the plugs (give hints of the general running mixture), clean the white oxide off the inside of the dizzy cap, check each wheel for binding brakes, clean the MAF & IAV with carb cleaner

next valuable tool is a usb consult data cable using nissan datascan software on a laptop to see all the sensor readings to the ecu. will be able to spot if the O2, MAF, IAV,TPS & temperature sensors within spec.

next is to synchronise the dizzy timing with the ecu using a scrobe preferably with datascan (software can force 15deg at idle and you simply match the crank pulley marking to 15deg with the strobe)

MAF, i think the facelifts use a bosch TB with replaceable MAF. there are other experts in here who can verify
 
pollyp said:
as with any vehicle all the components have to work within spec and efficiently to achieve the best milage.

alot of variables can degrade economy:
blocked air filter, faulty MAF, stuck IAV, seized waxstat fast idle mechanism (throttle stuck open slightly), leaking injectors, plug gaps/fouled plug, faulty o2 feedback, major misfire, faulty coolant temp reading (stuck in cold start fast idle mode?), thermostat stuck open (wasting heat energy), incorrect ignition timing, collapsed cat, binding brakes, underinflated tyres, electrical drain (especially prolonged use of lights n heating during winter), driving style

check the easy stuff first like air filter, condition & gaps of the plugs (give hints of the general running mixture), clean the white oxide off the inside of the dizzy cap, check each wheel for binding brakes, clean the MAF & IAV with carb cleaner

next valuable tool is a usb consult data cable using nissan datascan software on a laptop to see all the sensor readings to the ecu. will be able to spot if the O2, MAF, IAV,TPS & temperature sensors within spec.

next is to synchronise the dizzy timing with the ecu using a scrobe preferably with datascan (software can force 15deg at idle and you simply match the crank pulley marking to 15deg with the strobe)

MAF, i think the facelifts use a bosch TB with replaceable MAF. there are other experts in here who can verify
Click to expand...

Very many thanks pollyp for the reply and very comprehensive list of factors to be considered.

Today I took the car for MOT and it passed but with lots of advisory notes!!!

The guy who was doing the MOT told me that the front passenger side wheel is not moving as it shold be. Does that meen it is binding? How can I fix it myself?

The Haynes manual only tels how to replace pads etc. Is it the same?

Regards
 
test it urself. jack up the wheels and rock the wheel vertically & horizontally to check for loose/worn joints & wheel bearings. spin em, if they resist turning quite abit then the brakes could be binding.

remove the front calipers n check the guide pins slide in out with ease (seized pins also cause uneven pad wear), remove the pads off the sprung sliders (if they resist sliding off, dirt/rust maybe sticking em on so clean the sliders n pad edges), spin the disc/hub without the pads to check the bearings not seized, finally push the front caliper piston in & out (not too far out and keep eye on the fluid reservoir) several times to free up a stuck piston seal (very common)
 
pollyp said:
test it urself. jack up the wheels and rock the wheel vertically & horizontally to check for loose/worn joints & wheel bearings. spin em, if they resist turning quite abit then the brakes could be binding.

remove the front calipers n check the guide pins slide in out with ease (seized pins also cause uneven pad wear), remove the pads off the sprung sliders (if they resist sliding off, dirt/rust maybe sticking em on so clean the sliders n pad edges), spin the disc/hub without the pads to check the bearings not seized, finally push the front caliper piston in & out (not too far out and keep eye on the fluid reservoir) several times to free up a stuck piston seal (very common)
Click to expand...

Very many thanks I will try it in the morning and will report back.

Regards
 
Just been reading this thread, with regard to the second (post cat) sensor on the exhaust, from what i can gather its just an EGT sensor, i maybe wrong, but i have a coilpack 1.4, and have a PL system fitted, obvously this is made for the pre coilpack engine and doesnt have the second sensor fitting on it, so i have just cable tied this sensor up in the engine bay, and i passed the MOT with this with no problems at all. Looking at the sensors, the pre cat one has cut outs in it, the second one is just a solid sensor, no cut outs. Thats what leads me to believe that it is just an EGT sensor, please correct me if i am wrong.
 
the primary o2 should oscilate between too rich (1.0v) & too lean (0V) rapidly as it sends feedback to the ecu to constantly adjust fuel trim.

secondary o2 after the cats are usually used by the ecu to just monitor if the cats are operating efficiently and should give a steady live (above 0v) reading. if it oscilates like the primary, then the cat isn't working and sends a check light
 
pollyp said:
the prefacelift had a waxstat fast idle mechanism which tended to seize open and conflict with the IAV and cause issues.

i believe nissan has removed the waxstat on the facelift cos of that prob so idle is solely controlled by the IAV.
normally it should fast idle when cold at 1300 and eventually idle at a stable 750 when warm. these IAV crust up with carbon over time till they start affecting idling so needs annual cleaning.

wonder if the mechanics checked if all the sensors on the realtime readings are working properly and especially if the primary & 2nd O2 sensors working within spec cos a faulty O2 can cause a limp mode rich mixture which could foul the plugs and ruin the expensive cat eventually and may affect idle control too.

btw that smalll rectangle filter in the airbox is the PCV breather filter. tends to get soaked and blocked with oil mist (piston ring blowby etc) over years and cause a minor crankcase vacuum but its more of an emissions treatment device and shouldn't affect how it runs.
Click to expand...
dont suppose you have a section in your blog on cleaning the iav as i have a coilpack facelift have changed maf with one from hoopdub that he says is working and still have an idle that raises and falls i can feel it through the car
 

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