Engine question - high revs
- Thread starter ollyc98
- Start date
Just the design of the engine?
Honda seem to have managed to develop high revving engines, it just depends on how much strength the actual engine can hold.
I've seen K10's rev well beyond the clock without sustaining damage, but they just lose power eventually, no idea why.
Honda seem to have managed to develop high revving engines, it just depends on how much strength the actual engine can hold.
I've seen K10's rev well beyond the clock without sustaining damage, but they just lose power eventually, no idea why.
yer f1 engines rev to over twice that, but only last a short amount of time and cost millions to build!
I think there's probably a number of reasons.
I'm willing to be balancing orders etc play a large part in it. Also, it's cheaper to make engine parts that don't have to endure such high temperatures, high friction, and high wear, rather then make those that do. Stroke length also plays a part.
I'm willing to be balancing orders etc play a large part in it. Also, it's cheaper to make engine parts that don't have to endure such high temperatures, high friction, and high wear, rather then make those that do. Stroke length also plays a part.
If you want your k10 to rev up to 10,000rpm you're nuts.
Carry the following at all times..
-Knife to cut yourself out of your car, when it catches fire.
-Fire extinguisher.. to extinguish the fire
-A camera, to record a k10 revving at 10,000rpm and blowing up.
A K10 sounds pretty crap at 6k revs, why do you think it would sound good any higher? lol. 8K or more and you will hear it sounding very sick indeed
OP
OP
ollyc98
Ex. Club Member
I meant engines in general, high revs make for a nicer exhaust note. I know the K10 sounds roungh after 4k lol. The k10 wouldn't perform well higher up cos they are only 8 valve anyway. I just always wondered why car engines couldn't rev high
Simple.
Lots of moving parts very fast = lots of energy, high wear rates, noise etc.
People don't like that, and its not efficient. Also to move any object twice as fast requires typically 4x the energy. I.e. to rev a car to 10K takes 4x as much work as 5K. The forces are immense. It would be horrid and as you know things would wear out much quicker. Also if you have to tune an engine to be efficient at a very high rpm its totally useless at low rpm, and again efficiency is lost. Yes variable valves help but thats more cost again. So many reasons for this.
Lots of moving parts very fast = lots of energy, high wear rates, noise etc.
People don't like that, and its not efficient. Also to move any object twice as fast requires typically 4x the energy. I.e. to rev a car to 10K takes 4x as much work as 5K. The forces are immense. It would be horrid and as you know things would wear out much quicker. Also if you have to tune an engine to be efficient at a very high rpm its totally useless at low rpm, and again efficiency is lost. Yes variable valves help but thats more cost again. So many reasons for this.
OP
OP
ollyc98
Ex. Club Member
Oh right, well some good educated answers there, the basic opinion seems to be that engines can't rev as high due to mechanical strength and wear of components.
I guess the only way to get it to have a nicer tone would be to add more cylinders (more explosions per rotation lol)
I guess the only way to get it to have a nicer tone would be to add more cylinders (more explosions per rotation lol)
If you get an 8 pot, then different crankshaft layouts make different noises. I can't remember off the top of my head, but one makes that nice burbling sound, and the other makes a constant stream of noise. I think.
Probably the best engines for higher revs would be Inline 6's, and V12's, due to their natural primary and secondary balance.
Probably the best engines for higher revs would be Inline 6's, and V12's, due to their natural primary and secondary balance.
frank
Club Member
the best sounding f1, was the brm v16 imo
(it goes round the back of the track and out of earshot for a minute, then comes past again
)
http://www.micra.org.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=10623&stc=1&d=1222383165
(it goes round the back of the track and out of earshot for a minute, then comes past again
)http://www.micra.org.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=10623&stc=1&d=1222383165
OP
OP
ollyc98
Ex. Club Member
the best sounding f1, was the brm v16 imo
(it goes round the back of the track and out of earshot for a minute, then comes past again
http://www.micra.org.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=10623&stc=1&d=1222383165
That does sound nice but I prefer a more high pitched whine lol
bobsp16
Site Supporter
Initial D (Y)
Specific cars of Honda house "Spoon" engines (Honda themselves do make their own high-revving engines, which can be found in the S2000), which are the ones that rev very high to produce more power rather than using a turbo (People still turbo these, though). Engines produce large amount of vibration, even at low revs. Spoon produces engines, or rather, modify them so that they are more balanced. Ie. the components which make up the engine are more defined and equal in weight, so that the engine components can be rotated much more, more evenly.
As to your earlier post, some bikes rev a lot higher because they are 2 stroke engines.
As to your earlier post, some bikes rev a lot higher because they are 2 stroke engines.
Antony
Ex. Club Member
right.
the S2000 pre-2005 can rev to 9500rpm.
the s2000 post 2005 can rev to 9000rpm due to longer throw crank (more torque fewer rpm's)
Honda engines can rev particularly high because of lots of reasons. here are plenty..lol
The engines have variable cam timing, this helps with low RPM torque and higher RPM power by altering the valve lift and sometimes timing (on toyota VVTI for instance) by alowing the fuel/air mix a longer duration to enter the cylinders at a higher RPM (generaly at higher rpm there is less time for the Fuel air mix to enter the cylinders but Vtec/vvti/mivec eliminates this)
The bottom end of the engine (crank rods and bearing caps etc) are very very tough. the main bearing caps are actualy a cradle much like the CG13DE engines. this not only eliminates flex of the crank at high rpm's but strengthens the block too. (something normal caps dont do) the crank also is usualy machined to very very high tollerances and balanced beyond anything nissan or toyota can muster up in many of their engines.
next is the architecture of the cylnder heads and compression ratio's. Honda usualy run very high C/ratio's (usualy 9.5:1 up to 11.5:1 in the B16a2 engine) and as standard a very well flowed and balanced cylinder head. this in conjunction with the other points raised above give the honda engines very very good reliability even at stupid rpm's. (the integra type R B18C engine famously runs off the clock at 10,000rpm+ even in stock form)
now a CG13DE engine with a balanced bottom end, very high C/R pistons, a vastly modified cylinder head and throttle bodies, very light flywheel and beefed up valve train, stupidly high lift and long duration cams and a decent ignition system, electronic waterpump and perfectly matched exhaust manifold can muster up over 11,000rpm. and plenty of power but none of that power will be available until the engine is at sufficient rpm's for the cams to perform within their band and for the rotational mass of the engine to produce enough torque to pull you through the gears. an 11krpm 1300cc engine would need to be rung to 5-6000rpm to even have enough power to accelerate.
then again.... look at a suzuki Hyabusa, 1300cc 190bhp at 11400rpm, max revs 14000rpm!
Moto GP engines running 800cc, 245bhp and 21000rpm, with a 4stroke engine!!!
my nitro car engine 1.3cc, 2.5bhp @32000rpm revs to 39000rpm
the S2000 pre-2005 can rev to 9500rpm.
the s2000 post 2005 can rev to 9000rpm due to longer throw crank (more torque fewer rpm's)
Honda engines can rev particularly high because of lots of reasons. here are plenty..lol
The engines have variable cam timing, this helps with low RPM torque and higher RPM power by altering the valve lift and sometimes timing (on toyota VVTI for instance) by alowing the fuel/air mix a longer duration to enter the cylinders at a higher RPM (generaly at higher rpm there is less time for the Fuel air mix to enter the cylinders but Vtec/vvti/mivec eliminates this)
The bottom end of the engine (crank rods and bearing caps etc) are very very tough. the main bearing caps are actualy a cradle much like the CG13DE engines. this not only eliminates flex of the crank at high rpm's but strengthens the block too. (something normal caps dont do) the crank also is usualy machined to very very high tollerances and balanced beyond anything nissan or toyota can muster up in many of their engines.
next is the architecture of the cylnder heads and compression ratio's. Honda usualy run very high C/ratio's (usualy 9.5:1 up to 11.5:1 in the B16a2 engine) and as standard a very well flowed and balanced cylinder head. this in conjunction with the other points raised above give the honda engines very very good reliability even at stupid rpm's. (the integra type R B18C engine famously runs off the clock at 10,000rpm+ even in stock form)
now a CG13DE engine with a balanced bottom end, very high C/R pistons, a vastly modified cylinder head and throttle bodies, very light flywheel and beefed up valve train, stupidly high lift and long duration cams and a decent ignition system, electronic waterpump and perfectly matched exhaust manifold can muster up over 11,000rpm. and plenty of power but none of that power will be available until the engine is at sufficient rpm's for the cams to perform within their band and for the rotational mass of the engine to produce enough torque to pull you through the gears. an 11krpm 1300cc engine would need to be rung to 5-6000rpm to even have enough power to accelerate.
then again.... look at a suzuki Hyabusa, 1300cc 190bhp at 11400rpm, max revs 14000rpm!
Moto GP engines running 800cc, 245bhp and 21000rpm, with a 4stroke engine!!!
my nitro car engine 1.3cc, 2.5bhp @32000rpm revs to 39000rpm
the best sounding f1, was the brm v16 imo
(it goes round the back of the track and out of earshot for a minute, then comes past again
http://www.micra.org.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=10623&stc=1&d=1222383165
Frank, that sounded amazing - even on my crappy laptop speakers the stereo effect was, well, delightful.
Bikes v cars, is it not a lot to do with the fact that bike's don't need anywhere near as much torque to be moved so can rev higher to get higher bhp/l?
Antony
Ex. Club Member
naah, thats only an rb20. what you want is the 4 rotor from the 787B
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go3Fgd1wgic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Go3Fgd1wgic
IGNITION...is another
So far not mentioned ...(charging....zap!....bang <the conversion to kinetic>)
My last sukuki bandit (600N) redlined at +10k...and I never got a look at teh ignition on it before I sold it on..shame I would have beenn interested in their solution
moving on...
typicaly, the K10 micra (and most other comparible topologies) have one coil and a mechanical distributer (extra energy conversion losses)...at high RPM there really is not enough time at all, to build up enough magnetic energy in the core of the ignition coil that can be transformed into a arc at the plugs.....no-spark, no burn, no torque
So far not mentioned ...(charging....zap!....bang <the conversion to kinetic>)
My last sukuki bandit (600N) redlined at +10k...and I never got a look at teh ignition on it before I sold it on..shame I would have beenn interested in their solution
moving on...
typicaly, the K10 micra (and most other comparible topologies) have one coil and a mechanical distributer (extra energy conversion losses)...at high RPM there really is not enough time at all, to build up enough magnetic energy in the core of the ignition coil that can be transformed into a arc at the plugs.....no-spark, no burn, no torque
frank
Club Member
Snikty
Site Supporter
Here's a list of the top piston speed production car engines at 2004...sorry cant find a more recent list...
1. Honda S2000:
Engine Code: F20C1
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.31"
Redline: 9000rpm
Piston Speed: 4965 Ft/min
2. Lamborghini Gallardo
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.25" X 3.65"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4866.67 Ft/min
3. Acura Integra Type R
Engine Code: B18C5
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4802 Ft/min
4. BMW M3 (Germany)
Engine Code: S54
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.58"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4773.33 Ft/min
5. Honda S2000 2004
Engine Code: F22C
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4760 Ft/min
6. Honda Integra Type R (JDM)
Engine Code: K20A
Bore/Stroke: 3.39" X 3.39"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4746 Ft/min
7. Acura Integra GSR 2001
Engine Code: B18C
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
Redline: 8200rpm
Piston Speed: 4687.67 Ft/min
8. Saleen S7
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 4.13" X 4.00"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4666.67 Ft/min
9. Acura TSX
Engine Code: K24A2
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.90"
Redline: 7100rpm
Piston Speed: 4615 Ft/min
10. Suzuki Hayabusa Sport Prototype
Engine Code: W701
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 2.48"
Redline: 11000rpm
Piston Speed: 4546.67 Ft/min
11. Honda Civic Type R
Engine Code: B16B
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.03"
Redline: 9000rpm
Piston Speed: 4545 Ft/min
12. Toyota Celica GTS / Matrix XRS 2001
Engine Code: 2ZZ-GE
Bore/Stroke: 3.23" X 3.35"
Redline: 8100rpm
Piston Speed: 4522.5 Ft/min
13. Honda Prelude Type S (JDM)
Engine Code: H22A
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
Redline: 7500rpm
Piston Speed: 4462.5 Ft/min
14. Acura RSX Type S
Engine Code: K20A2
Bore/Stroke: 3.38" X 3.38"
Redline: 7900rpm
Piston Speed: 4450.33 Ft/min
15. Ferrari 360 Modena (incl. Challenge, Stradale, etc)
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.35" X 3.11"
Redline: 8500rpm
Piston Speed: 4405.83 Ft/min
An interesting fact however is that the guy that developed a large chunk of these engines, Sakuji Arai, considers the acura TSX engine to be his favourite. Read more here:
http://au.cars.ign.com/articles/503/503355p1.html
Highest revving racing engine is:
BMW Williams FW25 (2003)
Engine Code: P83
Bore/Stroke: Believed to be 3.90" X 1.54"
Max RPM: 19200rpm
Piston Speed: 7874.02 Ft/min
Obviously F1 engines are very top secret so its only specualtion as to the spec, but it is a v10.
1. Honda S2000:
Engine Code: F20C1
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.31"
Redline: 9000rpm
Piston Speed: 4965 Ft/min
2. Lamborghini Gallardo
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.25" X 3.65"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4866.67 Ft/min
3. Acura Integra Type R
Engine Code: B18C5
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4802 Ft/min
4. BMW M3 (Germany)
Engine Code: S54
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.58"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4773.33 Ft/min
5. Honda S2000 2004
Engine Code: F22C
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
Redline: 8000rpm
Piston Speed: 4760 Ft/min
6. Honda Integra Type R (JDM)
Engine Code: K20A
Bore/Stroke: 3.39" X 3.39"
Redline: 8400rpm
Piston Speed: 4746 Ft/min
7. Acura Integra GSR 2001
Engine Code: B18C
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.43"
Redline: 8200rpm
Piston Speed: 4687.67 Ft/min
8. Saleen S7
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 4.13" X 4.00"
Redline: 7000rpm
Piston Speed: 4666.67 Ft/min
9. Acura TSX
Engine Code: K24A2
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.90"
Redline: 7100rpm
Piston Speed: 4615 Ft/min
10. Suzuki Hayabusa Sport Prototype
Engine Code: W701
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 2.48"
Redline: 11000rpm
Piston Speed: 4546.67 Ft/min
11. Honda Civic Type R
Engine Code: B16B
Bore/Stroke: 3.19" X 3.03"
Redline: 9000rpm
Piston Speed: 4545 Ft/min
12. Toyota Celica GTS / Matrix XRS 2001
Engine Code: 2ZZ-GE
Bore/Stroke: 3.23" X 3.35"
Redline: 8100rpm
Piston Speed: 4522.5 Ft/min
13. Honda Prelude Type S (JDM)
Engine Code: H22A
Bore/Stroke: 3.43" X 3.57"
Redline: 7500rpm
Piston Speed: 4462.5 Ft/min
14. Acura RSX Type S
Engine Code: K20A2
Bore/Stroke: 3.38" X 3.38"
Redline: 7900rpm
Piston Speed: 4450.33 Ft/min
15. Ferrari 360 Modena (incl. Challenge, Stradale, etc)
Engine Code: N/A
Bore/Stroke: 3.35" X 3.11"
Redline: 8500rpm
Piston Speed: 4405.83 Ft/min
An interesting fact however is that the guy that developed a large chunk of these engines, Sakuji Arai, considers the acura TSX engine to be his favourite. Read more here:
http://au.cars.ign.com/articles/503/503355p1.html
Highest revving racing engine is:
BMW Williams FW25 (2003)
Engine Code: P83
Bore/Stroke: Believed to be 3.90" X 1.54"
Max RPM: 19200rpm
Piston Speed: 7874.02 Ft/min
Obviously F1 engines are very top secret so its only specualtion as to the spec, but it is a v10.
curtis
Ex. Club Member
My white K10 hit about 10k before it blew, thats if the rev counter is accurate at the top end
The space between the 8K limit and where the needle was, was quite a gap, then bang!
So K10s can rev that high with a few mods like inlet and outlet changes + webers, but not adviseable lol
The space between the 8K limit and where the needle was, was quite a gap, then bang!
So K10s can rev that high with a few mods like inlet and outlet changes + webers, but not adviseable lol
Antony
Ex. Club Member
why?
and those specs are very under specc'd on the honda's.
8000rpm for pre 2004 s2000? my best friend owned an S2000 before his now focus ST2. and at 8000rpm the rev counter (electronic) isnt even in the red. and as stated by best motoring magazine they rev to well over 9500rpm.
so a little misleading.
maximum power at 8000rpm maybe., but not redline.
and there is a video on youtube of a Cosworth F1 engine going well over 21000rpm on a dyno.
and those specs are very under specc'd on the honda's.
8000rpm for pre 2004 s2000? my best friend owned an S2000 before his now focus ST2. and at 8000rpm the rev counter (electronic) isnt even in the red. and as stated by best motoring magazine they rev to well over 9500rpm.
so a little misleading.
maximum power at 8000rpm maybe., but not redline.
and there is a video on youtube of a Cosworth F1 engine going well over 21000rpm on a dyno.
