when i cut my springs how much drop do i get for each coil i cut out and how many should i cut out all the best lance
cuting the springs
- Thread starter lancebeano
- Start date
buy lowering springs mate
Just don't do it. Not only are you putting the standard shocks under too much pressure, and as Arnold says you will cause an accident.
I done this on mine and I regret every minute of it, it's too low (only chopped 1 or 2 off) and it's so bouncy and uncomfortable it's unreal, plus it's dangerous.. and my front springs keep loosening up from the shocker.
So do you have your car running on the standard suspension, or have you used OEM parts from other cars etc? I'm interested. I'd say I'd read through your blog again, but so many pages.
And yeah, it says somewhere on some website "When you cut a spring, you don't have a spring anymore. You have a piece of metal shaped like a spring." Or something along those lines.
im useing primera springs on the standard shocks with modifide cups to hold the biger springs in. my mate did it for me last nite the car is realy stiff there is hardly any body rool at all and you can realy throw it round the corners know the car is not bouncy at all very surprised but all seams ok
sorry my spelling is crap
Please do not use txt speak on the Forums, Hugh
sorry my spelling is crap
Please do not use txt speak on the Forums, Hugh
I've done in the region of 30K miles on chopped springs (not in a micra). 3 MOT's were passed with them and no puppies or nuns were killed.
GuyH08
Ex. Club Member
Have you got any evidence for this?
ollyc98
Ex. Club Member
The law states that all parts of the suspension should be intact with no signs of snapping or corrosion.
Cut springs don't sit in the cup properly and could fall out resulting in the car jumping off in one direction and flattening some pedestrian.
But if you think you're above the law, and are selfish enough not to care if you kill someone due to a crappy bodge then crack on, cut your springs
ollyc98
Ex. Club Member
But it doesn't improve the ride, what good is looks when the car handles like a bag o ####, if you want it low then get coilovers and stop being so cheap.
Also if you're cheap enough to cut springs then you won't pay for a panhard rod which will put your rear suspension out of alignment
Also if you're cheap enough to cut springs then you won't pay for a panhard rod which will put your rear suspension out of alignment
well yeah thts is true i did sit off but i swear to god the back end never stepped out once and i gave that car some amount of abuse!! it was twitching a bit when i cut 3 or 4 coils off the springs but when i went even more and took them out and cut the bump stops in half it was amazing handling and not as bouncy as you think
+1
I don't see why people want to take risks by cutting corners just to save a few quid. Lowering springs cost hardly anything.
I'm certanly not saying that cut springs are the be all and end all. There are other ways of lowering a car that can lead to better or improved ride or handleing characteristics.
That it is unsafe and that it is illegal is being presented as fact without any real evedence being provided. Qutations from MOT regulations or Construction and Use clauses would be nice.
I am also well aware that the mass of evidence that chopped springs are not actually that bad is purely anectdotal. That there are however many cases where cars (not nessarsarily micras) with copped springs have passes MOT's and been used regularly without mishap cannot be in doubt. In all of the various forums I've used and conversations I've had at shows or meets I have never come accross an instance where the cause of an accident has purely been attributed to the chopped springs.
I have used cut springs before, in a situation where the design of the spring seats allowed the correct seating of an open spring end, and where the full drop of the suspension did not allow the spring to come loose, and where the the operation of the suspention remained within the manufactureres allowances (it wasn't riding on the bumpstops or bottoming out the shock absorbers). In this situation there was no noticable detrimental effect to the ride or handeling that would not have been evident with aftermarket springs that gave the same drop. In my situation I made sure that the MOT tester knew that the springs were cut, these were actually aftermarket springs that were then cut to achieve the desired lowering.
My and many others interpretation of all the quotes and mis-quotes of the legaslation I have seen is that the cutting of springs is legal, if it has been done sensibly with all of the issues mentioned taken into account. After all a cut spring is not broken or incomplete. After it has been cut that is its length, in the same way that an aftermarket spring has a length, and is not the spring from the factory.
I am happy to change my opinion, and never consider using cut springs again. Show me the evedence that proves that I am wrong.
That it is unsafe and that it is illegal is being presented as fact without any real evedence being provided. Qutations from MOT regulations or Construction and Use clauses would be nice.
I am also well aware that the mass of evidence that chopped springs are not actually that bad is purely anectdotal. That there are however many cases where cars (not nessarsarily micras) with copped springs have passes MOT's and been used regularly without mishap cannot be in doubt. In all of the various forums I've used and conversations I've had at shows or meets I have never come accross an instance where the cause of an accident has purely been attributed to the chopped springs.
I have used cut springs before, in a situation where the design of the spring seats allowed the correct seating of an open spring end, and where the full drop of the suspension did not allow the spring to come loose, and where the the operation of the suspention remained within the manufactureres allowances (it wasn't riding on the bumpstops or bottoming out the shock absorbers). In this situation there was no noticable detrimental effect to the ride or handeling that would not have been evident with aftermarket springs that gave the same drop. In my situation I made sure that the MOT tester knew that the springs were cut, these were actually aftermarket springs that were then cut to achieve the desired lowering.
My and many others interpretation of all the quotes and mis-quotes of the legaslation I have seen is that the cutting of springs is legal, if it has been done sensibly with all of the issues mentioned taken into account. After all a cut spring is not broken or incomplete. After it has been cut that is its length, in the same way that an aftermarket spring has a length, and is not the spring from the factory.
I am happy to change my opinion, and never consider using cut springs again. Show me the evedence that proves that I am wrong.
frank
Club Member
i can beat that by 5yrs lol
this cut spring debate comes up about every 12 months fwn, and it,s always very heated and polarised
Retepetsir
King of Subsonic
How did the springs not jump out of their mounts???
This is indeed a subject that comes up time and time again all over the interweb, Some solid evidence is whats needed to put it to bed.
Perhaps stani's were lock wired or otherwise held in place, to keep them in their cups.
Back in the late 90's my brother ran a very low Opel Manta, the rear springs were so short that they would fall out on full extension of the rear suspension. This was solved by using some lengths of seat belt webbing as check straps to stop the the axle dropping far enough to release the springs.
This was not a drive-way solution, this was engineered by a local firm doing some bodywork restoration.
Perhaps stani's were lock wired or otherwise held in place, to keep them in their cups.
Back in the late 90's my brother ran a very low Opel Manta, the rear springs were so short that they would fall out on full extension of the rear suspension. This was solved by using some lengths of seat belt webbing as check straps to stop the the axle dropping far enough to release the springs.
This was not a drive-way solution, this was engineered by a local firm doing some bodywork restoration.
Stani1029
Club Member
they just stayed in the mounts, only way i can think of them falling out is if you were to go over a massive jump which would allow the axle to drop and the spring to fall out but im no daredevil lol also it failed mot as a result of the spring being loose or something so its completely your choice if you do it
Then that really is the wrong way to go about it, however unlikely it is that the suspension could be on full drop while driving if the spring can come loose on drop then it is unsafe.
Robb
Site Supporter
Just buy 50mm springs from mph, they are ace.
Also here is something else to chew on, given the technology in/on cars today im suprised your still allowed to drive cars on the queens roads with no abs, or an ncap safety rating of less than 3 stars etc. Both of which apply to the k10 and k11.
I dont necessarily agree with my statement (if i was i wouldnt be driving a micra!) but plenty of cars are unsafe enough as it is. Ive had at least 3 near misses in my current k11 thanks to no abs.
Also here is something else to chew on, given the technology in/on cars today im suprised your still allowed to drive cars on the queens roads with no abs, or an ncap safety rating of less than 3 stars etc. Both of which apply to the k10 and k11.
I dont necessarily agree with my statement (if i was i wouldnt be driving a micra!) but plenty of cars are unsafe enough as it is. Ive had at least 3 near misses in my current k11 thanks to no abs.
Retepetsir
King of Subsonic
Then drive with a bigger gap in front of you....ABS doesn't make you a safer driver.
ollyc98
Ex. Club Member
I will not drive a car that decides when to brake for me, I also won't use airbags or PAS.
Old skool cars are more reliable, you don't lose steering when the engine stalls, you don't get a ball of gas whacking you in the face and you don't get the brakes turning themselves off.
If they made old cars illegal I'd stop driving
Old skool cars are more reliable, you don't lose steering when the engine stalls, you don't get a ball of gas whacking you in the face and you don't get the brakes turning themselves off.
If they made old cars illegal I'd stop driving
Haha, airbags. My dad was moaning at me how he only wants me driving cars with airbags so I don't die, so I showed him that video of chris atkinson doing a massive jump in his rally car, and not moving an inch out of position because of his 6 point harness. Then pointed out he'd have no need for an airbag. That shut him up.
PAS has it's uses, but i generally hate the feel of it in most every day cars, because you get no feel of what the wheels are actually doing, whereas you do with a non PAS car.
ABS is a grey area. Not a fan of it. After reading roadcraft, and questioning it here, I've found out you don't stop quicker with ABS, and all it lets you do is steer whilst braking heavily, which you can do if you imply a manual cadence system. So all ABS is for is for people who can't be arsed to pump the brake pedal. Mainly sunday drivers and most women (no disrespect, but even most of the friends that are women have agreed the majority of women drivers are shocking and useless in crashes.)
I'm gonna be gutted if the government brings in this £2k for scrapping your car scheme. I love cars from the 90's, and they'll all be gone And what about all the young drivers? Most of the small cars new drivers start with are bought by old people. If they can get 2k for them now, to buy a nice shiny car, then what are young people gonna buy?
This has gone a bit of topic now.
PAS has it's uses, but i generally hate the feel of it in most every day cars, because you get no feel of what the wheels are actually doing, whereas you do with a non PAS car.
ABS is a grey area. Not a fan of it. After reading roadcraft, and questioning it here, I've found out you don't stop quicker with ABS, and all it lets you do is steer whilst braking heavily, which you can do if you imply a manual cadence system. So all ABS is for is for people who can't be arsed to pump the brake pedal. Mainly sunday drivers and most women (no disrespect, but even most of the friends that are women have agreed the majority of women drivers are shocking and useless in crashes.)
I'm gonna be gutted if the government brings in this £2k for scrapping your car scheme. I love cars from the 90's, and they'll all be gone
And what about all the young drivers? Most of the small cars new drivers start with are bought by old people. If they can get 2k for them now, to buy a nice shiny car, then what are young people gonna buy?This has gone a bit of topic now.
Alienfish360
Awesome Dawson
As you wish.
http://www.motuk.co.uk/manual_240.htm
" Deliberate modification which
significantly reduces the original strength, excessive corrosion, severe distortion, a fracture or an Inadequate repair of a load bearing member or its supporting structure or supporting panelling within 30cm of any sub-frame, spring or a suspension component mounting, that is, within a 'prescribed area', see Appendix C."
A spring that has been cut with pauses to avaid overheating and de-tempering the spring, and that seats correctly so as to not put undue strain on the tail of the spring, or spring seat, is not going to have been significantly weakened.
However, it will be at the discretion of the tester to decide this, if the tester takes a look and its cut all wonky and not seating very well he'll print out a red form.
This cannot be held up as proof that they are illegal, only that if in the testers opinion the spring has been significantly weakened it should be an MOT fail.
I know of at least three instances personally where the tester has felt that the cut spring should recieve a pass - these are instances where the tester knew that the spring had been cut.
However, it will be at the discretion of the tester to decide this, if the tester takes a look and its cut all wonky and not seating very well he'll print out a red form.
This cannot be held up as proof that they are illegal, only that if in the testers opinion the spring has been significantly weakened it should be an MOT fail.
I know of at least three instances personally where the tester has felt that the cut spring should recieve a pass - these are instances where the tester knew that the spring had been cut.
jowley
Ex. Club Member
look at section c rejection for a. incomplete, cracked or fractured. and by law will be illegal.
i work on cars for a living and know what is what on cars
Back to incomplete springs again then, Incomplete compared to what? the stock spring or the spring the other side.
If one spring is compared to the other and they are the same, neither can be incomplete.
If a shortened spring is compared to a stock spring it is incomplete because only x% of the stock spring remains, and is a fail.
If an after market spring is compared to a stock spring it is incomplete because 0% of the stock spring remains, and is a fail.
If one spring is compared to the other and they are the same, neither can be incomplete.
If a shortened spring is compared to a stock spring it is incomplete because only x% of the stock spring remains, and is a fail.
If an after market spring is compared to a stock spring it is incomplete because 0% of the stock spring remains, and is a fail.
I wouldn't cut springs to be honest, you will have less metal supporting you which means less capability of absorbing shocks. Far better (and safer) to buy proper ones. Plus you will be stressing your shocks a lot more and these aren't cheap to replace. Original springs are bouncy enough as it is!
BG
BG
From the link previously posted.
Take care when jacking vehicles with shortened or lowered springs fitted. Provided the spring ends locate correctly when the vehicle is lowered into the normal running position, without any assistance this is not a reason for rejection.
Provided that the shortened spring seats correctly it is a pass.
How can what may achieve a pass in one section not be able to achieve a pass in the other.
The interpretation of incomplete is the key. As I mentioned in a previous post. So its seems that it has to be at the testers discretion how the section is interpreted. Baring in mind that as much experiance and knowlege a tester has they can not be expected to know the stock spring size for every car ever made, or for every set of aftermarket springs. So the only logical interpretation is that the spring is complete if it is part of a pair on that axle. The incomplete fail would be used in instances were springs were of a different lenght.
As is the significantly weakened clause. It is in the testers opinion that if the spring has been cut in such a way that it is not significantly weakened than it can be a pass.
So I'm still arguing that cut springs are not illegal. There may be disadvantages to their use, most often harsh ride and premature wear of shock absorbers used outside their normal operating range. But they are Legal.
This is backed up by the fact that many cars with cut springs pass MOTs.
Take care when jacking vehicles with shortened or lowered springs fitted. Provided the spring ends locate correctly when the vehicle is lowered into the normal running position, without any assistance this is not a reason for rejection.
Provided that the shortened spring seats correctly it is a pass.
How can what may achieve a pass in one section not be able to achieve a pass in the other.
The interpretation of incomplete is the key. As I mentioned in a previous post. So its seems that it has to be at the testers discretion how the section is interpreted. Baring in mind that as much experiance and knowlege a tester has they can not be expected to know the stock spring size for every car ever made, or for every set of aftermarket springs. So the only logical interpretation is that the spring is complete if it is part of a pair on that axle. The incomplete fail would be used in instances were springs were of a different lenght.
As is the significantly weakened clause. It is in the testers opinion that if the spring has been cut in such a way that it is not significantly weakened than it can be a pass.
So I'm still arguing that cut springs are not illegal. There may be disadvantages to their use, most often harsh ride and premature wear of shock absorbers used outside their normal operating range. But they are Legal.
This is backed up by the fact that many cars with cut springs pass MOTs.
callumf
Ex. Club Member
Antony
Ex. Club Member
i cut my eibach's with an angle grinder, then heated the end up with a blow torch and dunked it in water to harden it.
my 35mm springs now sit at 35mm lower (due to the lower weight of my lightened vehicle and the 15" wheels)
my dad (who is number 2 in the north UK VOSA dept and has worked in engineering for 10 years and as a cheif mechanic at hartwell Ford for 20 years) has said that they used to cut the springs on the Fiesta XR2 to get them to handle better and has done the same to a granada scorpio.
my car has passed 3 mot's (bearing in mind they know my dad and do a bloody thorough mot)
the cut side of the spring still sits in its rubber mounting (so there is a little give in its possition) and the rear of my car is so stiff the only way i can get the suspension to move is to get in the back and jump up and down on the boot opening.....
I have done this with stiffer springs and Bilstein NME spec shocks. i would never do this with stock springs as the spring rate (lbs per inch) is inssuficient to prevent bottoming out on the suspension at the rear. (front is fine but i would never do the front as they arent captured)
my 35mm springs now sit at 35mm lower (due to the lower weight of my lightened vehicle and the 15" wheels)
my dad (who is number 2 in the north UK VOSA dept and has worked in engineering for 10 years and as a cheif mechanic at hartwell Ford for 20 years) has said that they used to cut the springs on the Fiesta XR2 to get them to handle better and has done the same to a granada scorpio.
my car has passed 3 mot's (bearing in mind they know my dad and do a bloody thorough mot)
the cut side of the spring still sits in its rubber mounting (so there is a little give in its possition) and the rear of my car is so stiff the only way i can get the suspension to move is to get in the back and jump up and down on the boot opening.....
I have done this with stiffer springs and Bilstein NME spec shocks. i would never do this with stock springs as the spring rate (lbs per inch) is inssuficient to prevent bottoming out on the suspension at the rear. (front is fine but i would never do the front as they arent captured)
Because its not nessarsaryly about improving the handling.
So every MOT tester in the country knows the exact manufactures specifications for every car and every set of aftermarket springs? Yours is a very rigid interpretation of the wording that is not workable in the real world.
So what exactly is it that they do to make them shorter that isn't chopping them? Cut, Chopped, Shortened its all the same, a spring is made shorter by the removal of some of its length.
In some cases this might mean that the springs needs heating and bending to return the tail to its factory shape to aid seating, they would of course need re-tempering to regain their spring-ness. In some cases because of the spring seat design this is not nessarsary and the shortening process would be no different wherever it was done.
Awsome post Anthony, It would appear that the man from
Not to metion that there is another example of an MOT tester passing a spring that has been cut.
paddymarsden
Iggy Iggy oooooooooo
If you want to take the risk, do what you want.
Like Antony said your stock spring will not be as stiff as an uprated spring therefore it cant be stiffer, just make the car lower. so your only going for asthetics which is a waste when you can have handling and asthetics for £65.
£65 is a good price for decent springs that are built for your car.
Like Antony said your stock spring will not be as stiff as an uprated spring therefore it cant be stiffer, just make the car lower. so your only going for asthetics which is a waste when you can have handling and asthetics for £65.
£65 is a good price for decent springs that are built for your car.
I Cut my lowering springs 60mm....So the car is now lowered 100mm........ Nothing touches it on the bends....The only draw back is to strengten the stabilser bar(Goes from the chassis to the rear axle) I welded a piece of striaght bar up into it.....
It is the best mod i've done... Its quicker around a roundabout then my mates scooby!!!!
He was not impressed to say the least.......................
It is the best mod i've done... Its quicker around a roundabout then my mates scooby!!!!
He was not impressed to say the least.......................
