fill or weld rusty front member?

[asdame]

hi
i have a 1998 K11 SLX 91k miles and upon givin a good cleanup i found some rusty holes in the front member which concerns me.

the cars left hand is minor

but the right hand side worries me

could i just sand off the rust until bare metal and fill er, or should i invest more into welding it up? abit strapped for cash at the mo.

 

[sonic]

definately weld, its a structural part of the car.

 

[goldstar0011]

I tried filler once, the MOTer noticed it easy!
Get it changed, I've done 3 to date, pretty easy
Link
Check the "New Front End" page
Even got a spare front end that was on that car as it's being scrapped!

Good luck

 

[asdame]

####in hell goldstar :wow:

ok this is currently wayy advanced stuff for me but,
how did ya do that?

ur rust was way serious than mine here
but how did ya angle grind that entire front end off yet leave some of those flap ends?

i suppose you had to weld the new piece back on, were could i find one? but also how ££ is it to weld? (buy, hire or pay someone)

only planned on restoring me car by replacing rusty parts + tools for total £700 (rather than a new £1k+ car ya c) but this stuctural repair situation might push my budget.

btw i can't weld neatly at the mo (prob need practice at uni) but tis interesting challenge. could ya advise

gee, soo many Q's

that's some neat work you got there in the end (Y)

 

[solarice]

i know your asking goldstar but...

you could just replace the middle crossmember section, which while taking longer and also slightly harder involves less welding and leaves the headlight mount in place...removing the front end totally is dead easy, i just got my hands on a heavy duty drill with a chisel function and attacked it the metal peels off like butter.

Then you sit there grinding any high old weld areas till everythings smooth, line up the new and clamp in place, tack it all in place then work your way around the whole thing.

Also if just replacing the middle crossmember section, you can just bolt that in place and the cars still drivable (enough to get it to a welders -- if your not doing it yourself)...its slightly harder to do that if you replace the total front end.

I know thats all a rather simplistic description, but when looking at the front of the car you can see where and what to remove.

 

[asdame]

hey solarice

mmm yea i could just replace the middle section
but i think i might as well do those upright sectors it's mated to as well cos the surface's flaking and aint gona get any better.

besides, replacing the middle and upright sectors, it'll last longer, pass the MOT and brings peace to my worry of the car splittin apart one day

how are the panels originally mated together? r they spot welded.

just curious bout that flaking upright panel cos if i just chisel off the middle-member..it might flake n break apart with little metal left 4 welding which could lead back to, replacing the front end neway.

btw if i cut out the front end, would that mess up the alignments? (lights, bumpers, etc)

 

[NeX]

yep, pretty much the whole car is spot welded,

www.sel-imperial.co.uk do a complete front end. i have used them before and they are very good

if it were me then i'd have a go at welding it myself. you should be able to stick weld the thicker bits of metal which will give you a cleaner finnish and is a hell of a lot easier to do

 

[goldstar0011]

I didn't weld it on, I know you should be the 3 cars I did it to all passed MOT.

Simply took my time removing all the metal, have a compressor and impact drill so that makes it like hot knife through butter.

You can replace just the lower bit but because it's at the sides it might be harder and not that much less work.

It's not as hard as it looks, your top pic shows you know how to remove all the panels and parts you need to, it's simply drilling the spots welds out and removing the metal then fitting new one.
Only quirk was that had to do some tweaking to get everything fitting and level again but thats just trail and error.

You can easily do in half a day if you have common sense.

If you need any advice you can get me on goldstar0011(at)hotmail.com

 

[solarice]

how are the panels originally mated together? r they spot welded.

just curious bout that flaking upright panel cos if i just chisel off the middle-member..it might flake n break apart with little metal left 4 welding which could lead back to, replacing the front end neway.

btw if i cut out the front end, would that mess up the alignments? (lights, bumpers, etc)

The little uprights will come supplied which ever item you choose to get...the only difference to the whole front end is you get the head light mount and top cross aswell.

and yup everythings held on with spot welds...check for circular indents around the area...possibly even rusty circles a few mm across they'll be the spot welds.

for alignment i marked around the old front end so i had its original outline, then forced the new item into its place and tacked / clamped it in place.

i'll admit once you do one, its a hell of a lot easier to do a second...first time i spent ages removing it...think i had the whole front end off on mine within about 20mins or so...lol

 

[goldstar0011]

Same here Solarice, I could easily do one in no time now, tempted to offer services to a garage if they every get a micra in

Would say it's easier and cleaner to do the whole frontend than part welding.

I've never welded it back on and was fine for MOT but next time I would get it all aligned up then weld it in.

 

[asdame]

taa soo much goldstar, solarice & nex
i'll be moving the car into garage at end of month to strip n restore it
so i'll give ya a buzz whenever i get stuck.

if i was to weld em on should I MIG, TIG or stick weld em? a m8 recommends TIG but i don't fancy carryin big canisters around the house. could a stick welder run off our 3 plug mains or does it need seperate generator?
i think i should read n practice alot more into welding (just deciding which one's easiest n most effective n convenient)

Nex, the link seems to b down, i can't access it
r the panels sold like new parts or from scrapped?

 

[goldstar0011]

If doing the whole frontend there's no actual welding, you should spot weld it on, can use a MIG welder to puddle weld.

Sel Imperial are good but then you have to add VAT and p&p, ebay are cheaper
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Nissan-Micra-1993-1998-Front-Panel-Inner-New_W0QQitemZ190045882576QQihZ009QQcategoryZ10402QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
or a Nissan Speciafic breakers yard may have one.

 

[NeX]

good luck mate,

 

[richmicratwista]

wen i did mine this is where we took the member off

hope these pics help

 

[asdame]

i think i'll check around the local garages and a collegue on how much they'll do it for before i invest myself into learning and buy/hire a welder.
they'll prob do a better weld job than me and a collegue says his m8 could do it for reasonable amount.

the panel on ebay is tempting. may order it in and ask me collegues m8 to put it on.

that m8 is couple minutes drive away but my MOT n TAX expires the end of the month and i aint insured yet, could the car be towed there? or do i need a short term insurance?

 

[goldstar0011]

The way Richies was done is the best way if you have access to a welder as you don't have to mess up the headlight mounts as it's a pain to make sure everything fits again.

 

[asdame]

hey goldstar
ya know if i could get hold of an impact chisel to remove the entire front end at where it's originally spot welded and then a spot welder to refit a new section back on, would that work?

accordin to what i can best guess, r these points arrowed where it'll b spot welded? correct me or the pic if i missed out summin.

i also wanted to replace those L-flanges at the ends (circled in pic) that the sidewings r bolted onto cos mines broke/deformed due to seized bolt. so basically i'm replacing the entire front end.

if its true that i could spot weld it, then this should theoretically be an easy peasy "peel off n tack on" swap compared to other options

just hav to track down a spot weld to hire..

ohh yess
i found HSS Hire has a spot welder and an electric chipping hammer @ total £68 for a weekend
:grinning:

startin to sound like a cunning plan

 

[kristian]

dont bother with all that, when I did richmicratwista front end I just tacked up the sides and covered in hammerite. Perfect job..

...just borrow a mates gassles MIG

 

[goldstar0011]

An impact chisel is a luxury (that I have ), saves time for sure and is fun.
If you know anyone with a compressor then getting an impact drill tool may be cheaper.
You seem to have pointed out most the spot welds and the "L flange" if I get you is part of the new front end.
A note for you is cause you have power steering you'll have to remove that cooling pipe so make sure you have some fluid to top it up after, fit some bolts in the tube once the pipe is off.

Spot welding will make everything easier but if you have access to a MIG welder then a puddle weld will do seeing as all my cars passed without any re-welding.

Once you've done it you'll wonder why you were so worried

Make sure you have 2 days and thats just to give you time in case everything bad happens but I can't see what would.

 

[asdame]

think i'll settle with spot weldin cos i dunno neone with a MIG, tis cheaper to hire and'll make life easier.

i could just hand chisel the welds but, nahh i don't have the patience

could i not just bend the rubberly flexible power steering pipe out n remove the entire front end through it once i've chiseled it off without disconnecting the pipe?

i'll be doing this on a weekend near end of month once it's parked in garage.

 

[goldstar0011]

Should be able to, can't remember if I had any problems with my SLX when I did it.

I've hand chiseled it before, just make sure you drill out all spot welds, makes it even easier.
Spot welding is preferable if you have access to one.

Things to be warey of, the lower rad mounts, hopefully yours isn't as bad as mine was as they were rusted so much had to source new ones, the centre bar thingy that connects to the bonnet latch, had fitting issues so you may want to re-use old one.
Not much else really, just take your time and you'll be fine, you seem to have a good idea what you're doing anyway.

 

[asdame]

will try to grab hold of a spot welder when its needed. hmm when removing the spot welds should i drill though the original welds which makes removal easier and then re-spot weld the new panel on at points next the old one?
cos i think that when i chisel off the prev welds, there's less material thickness that could affect re-welding.

arent the rad mounts part of the front end? no. meh i'll check it out.

i think what i'll do is first park the car in garage, strip n assess the front end condition, chisel/drill out the old section, before i then hire the spot welder in the weekend

hope it goes well with few surprises.

 

[goldstar0011]

Where you spot weld shouldn't be an issue, just do plenty of them, wouldn't worry too much about the welding side of things as when everythings back together it all ties in and makes things stable.
The rad mounts don't usually come with the front end.

 

[solarice]

rad mounts dont come with it...if you need these nissan do them, i think they are somthing like £4 each +vat but not 100% as i cant find the invoice...and you'll need to supply your own bolts and nuts to fit em on

id check that the spot welder will work on mains power (they'll tell you)...guessing your planning on welding it at home as you may need industrial amperage (i think is the correct thinking / terminology, lol)

Goodluck with it

 

[asdame]

£4+ mounts, not bad. r they the rubberly mounts that suspends the rad? standard nuts n bolts no prob cos i can get em in uni workshop stores

hmm the welder runs at 240V, 32amps - industrial
i'm doin this at home yea, which a victorian type terrace house but i dunno if that'll work cos i read sumwhere that a single domestic circuit ring is fused at 24 or 32amps
so i'd prob have to turn off everything before using this beast or else it'll keep blowin the switch.
d'ya know another way if that happens?
guess a petrol generator's another option but adds cost again.

hmm ok i'm stuck now on how to go about powering this welder.
it draws too much current from my mains
and it'll prob hav those special 3/5 pin industrial plugs so i can't just plug it in the wall socket.

neone used a spot welder at home before?

 

[solarice]

the mounts i mentioned are the metal brackets that the rubber bushes sit in...id reckon your existing rubber bushes should be fine to reuse, infact your metal brackets may be ok aswell, depends on how badly theyve rusted.

 

[asdame]

yea i feel they'll be ok, at least it's still attached

 

[asdame]

hey
a little update on what i found tday.

the lower rad mounts seem ok, lil rusty, just needs a good clean.

next to it i found yet summore weakspots behind the front section, so it certainly needs replacin.

thing that puzzles me is which joint to start chiseling off if i was to do this myself?

Goldstar, i notice in ur pics u put your carstands in near the middle section, was it under this beam here? cos puttin me stands under the door sill bit is a pain (makin a wooden slot adapter)

the left outer gaiter def needs replacing

finally i wanted to remove the whole exhaust for cleaning but this bolt is ######ed on so prob soon let a professional look at it. most prob be broken in the removal process so is it only at the dealership that i can get this piece?

 

[asdame]

ok tday im torn between deciding whether to SORN the car n fix it in the garage or my sis suggested selling the car for profit cos i don't need a car yet cos i get lift to work.

tax expires end of the month (1 1/2wk) yet if i sell it i hav to re-register, mot, insure then tax it cos i'm liable till the new owner gets the reg cert, major headache n timing.

just think it's way easier here to just SORN & park it :'

 

[goldstar0011]

Yes, thats were I mounted axle stands on the chassis rails.
The mount looks good enough.

Starting, I usually start at the top, removing spot welds then grinding pieces off for safety.

I've circled the areas that have spot welds that need removing, remove these and the panel will come away easier.

 

[asdame]

tats grand

thx m8

ur a golden star

i'll soon figure out how to rewire a heavy duty cable from the fusebox for the spotwelder when i come to use it.

at the mo i'm clearin the garage in the winter dark which is a total utter pork pie of a mess

 

[asdame]

hi
tas been awhile since posting.

well, the cars finally in the garage and since im waiting for this cooker thing to be collected, i thought i'd just work on minor things but leave the car movable, just in case.

first off, i removed the dash. i was suppose to take off the wheel first to make it easier but twas not budging initially after alotta yanking n swearin. so the hard way was to loosen the steer mounts so i could lower the steering column n try to nudge the heavy dashboard over the wheel, but then amazingly the wheel just slipped off as i bumped it! "wtf?" grr

wiring was a mess so i remove the foxguard f1-11 alarm and im amazed at the botched quality of connections. so i'm def redo'ing this alarm i guess. some terminals like ign cut & starter cut, etc were just left out, which might explain why it used to go off randomly when parked and when driving and that it never cuts ignition when it does sound.
i recalled someone round forum got a wiring diag from some online keyfob replacement site, and i just got n email from em that the manual + post = £8 not bad.

noticed the door panel was peelin so upon removal the card was actually rotting

i carefully peel off the glued on cover

then goto B&Q to get a similar cardboard panel for 94p each (cheapas chips!) and jigsaw a replica. parts like the holes for the push-clips and the door handle hole were an utter pain cos i had to remove n recut the panel several times after i found it didn't line up.

gluing the cover was tricky cos nothing worked (superglue, double side, ducktape, staple) until i tried Contact glue from wilko.

refitted, and the doors good as new

before removin the central ventilation i had to drain the coolant n detach the heater matrix hoses (em original flimsy coolant hose clamps had to be snipped off after 8 years of rust n refit modern jubilee clamps there)

a dusty module

heater matrix needed afew fins straightenin that were bent from manufacture n debris

the interiors stripped n chassis wipe cleaned. tis not in a bad nick was hoping to leave it stripped like "little bandit" cos its soo roomy n light but had to refit it back cos house is cramped.

carpet needed a good vacuumin

interiors put together, ooh it's soo clean inside out.

after doin the heater matrix id decided to do the radiator. it has wayy more fins so gave up patience half way n just give i a good wipe n shower (upon puttin the showerhead down it twisted round n spray me wet 'arghhhh' lol

tday i cleaned the bonnet, wiper panel thingy and took off the front body for inspection n topup the coolant while engines runnin.

BUT when running the engine, i notice that after starting, exhaust is dripping of black water THEN once warmed up the exhaust smokes white abnormally high especially when i rev it.

worryingly a search tells me that it could be a blown headgasket or some coolant leakin into chamber. could this mean a big job of rebuildin the eng n hiring a crane?

btw im looking 4 matchin spray paint but does neone know what me cars colour name is? halfords don't have this nissan turquisy colour.

 

[asdame]

omg i just called partco about a new headgasket and the shocked guy quoted it at £99!! jeez

does anyone know where i could get a properly priced one?

ah no worry, i just phoned nissan dealer and quoted it at £32.23 phew

 

[asdame]

alright, i just registered n brought a new front panel member on ebay.co.uk from "quality-performance-parts" for £51

says the bids end 21st jan this afternoon, i just bidded after midnight. hope it still counts when i send the cheque tomorrow.

 

[Fordy]

worryingly a search tells me that it could be a blown headgasket or some coolant leakin into chamber. could this mean a big job of rebuildin the eng n hiring a crane?

it could just be a inlet manifold gasket gone and not a headgasket, id change the inlet manifold gasket first as its cheaper then if it dont fix it then change the headgasket

 

[asdame]

heya fordy
i've already taken the head n pistons out recently and looked like the head surface round the water jacket had been eaten away.
check me other thread:
http://micra.org.uk/t13606-cylinder-head-prob.html

admin James is kindly sendin me a spare head for £70.
oh and i've brought new inlet, exhaust and head gaskets too.

btw fordy d'ya know if the head bolts r TTY type thats suppose to be replaced?

 

[Swiper]

btw im looking 4 matchin spray paint but does neone know what me cars colour name is? halfords don't have this nissan turquisy colour.

nissan do the spray paint it's less than a tenner for paint and laquer, and is the best match you'll get, the paint code you'll need is on the vin plate, bottom right i think, it says "colour, trim" (eg. mine is KL0 (silver))

 

[asdame]

nissan do the spray paint it's less than a tenner for paint and laquer, and is the best match you'll get, the paint code you'll need is on the vin plate, bottom right i think, it says "colour, trim" (eg. mine is KL0 (silver))

excellent. i think i'll contact the dealerships parts dept for that amongst ordering other bits n bobs too.

 

[asdame]

um guys
i just emailed HSS hire bout whether the portable spot welder'll work on me house mains and he said no. i planned on weldin the front member at home but this 32amp requirement thing kinda stirs the pot :down:

anyone used a spot welder at home?

or shall i take the car n new front end to let a local garage do it, for an arm n leg price i fear?

 

[Fordy]

k11 head bolts can be reused as they arent stretch bolts

 

[asdame]

k11 head bolts can be reused as they arent stretch bolts

ta

 

[asdame]

ah bum, dad says won't be able to run the spot weld off the house fusebox. this sucks.

may hav to goto a local garage then.:down:

 

[goldstar0011]

Use a MIG welder and do puddle welds, one of mine evern passed MOT without being welded yet.

 

[asdame]

i'm not sure cos some of the mig welders in HSS run on 32amps input, plus i'll need weld masks etc, and i'm shyte at weldin (prefer a proper job) ends up prob more expensive than using the spot weld.

with this power limit problem, i'll ask garages around the place bout how much they'll £ to remove the old panel n spot weld the new one on.

with me car sorn'ed, front & side panels removed, and crossmember buckling, could it still be towed to a garage?

if it's going to the local garage I might as well ask em to replace the lower wishbones & track end with one i just brought from ebay too. the seized wishbone bolt is too tight for me to undo here (without angle grindin)

(hope it all costs within £100)

 

[asdame]

hey
now that the interior, brakes, susp, and engine is complete, the car'll be towed to a repair garage on friday tomorrow to replace the rusted front end and also align the steering.:grinning:

 

[asdame]

hi

i rang the garage this mornin. guy asked if i was quoted for such task (nope), and he couldn't tell me how much it costs til they physically see it.

he suggested sending a guy over to inspect the car for £50 (which'll be refunded back when the car is repaired)

i waited for what seemed like days for the guy to come, he arrived after 1 1/2 hours on busy friday. he checked the front end & new panel, said the coolant tank needs removin cos of welding heat, mentioned how my car's in gr8 nick (um yea i've been restoring it for like..6mths)

he noted all the info, said the garage'll contact me later bout the costs.

i soon removed the coolant tank in a flash, then the garage called me at 11am bout the quote as i was parkin the car.

it's £150 to replace the front panel & tow to/from garage, £50 to check 4 wheel alignment with their laser platform jig and £25 if they need adjusting.
the £50 inspection bit would also be refunded back.
overall...£200 to weld chassis & check wheels, extra £25 if align em.

the pickup & trailer soon came at 1pm. guy drove it up trailer and off he went. bye bye micra #wave#

feel so lonely already as the garage is empty.

the car'll prob be done & towed home next week so when i get the call i'll prob have to get parents to stay home as i'm at work.

 

[asdame]

guys i need ur advice.

at the mo the car is SORN, no mot or tax or insurance.

all 4 tyres need changing.
i had a specific eye on Avon CR322 that i've only found available from National Tyres Autocare down town for £134 (kwik fit's £££)

i'm gonna apply insurance tomorrow.

i need to know how to get from the state i mentioned above ^^ into a fully finished legal car..

should I:
a. book MOT for saturday, go there on old tyre, tell em i'll change the tyres afterwards in National Tyres down the road. would they pass the car? (or maybe they could change it to avons for me?)

b. jack up front & back of car, take off 4 wheels, ask parents to take me wheels to national tyres in their car to change em to avons, reinstall back onto car, drive car to MOT on saturday.

c. book MOT for saturday afternoon. drive car to national tyres in morning to change em before driving to MOT later on.
(i read if i have an MOT appointment, i could legally drive the car there right? would that also allow me to stop by the tyre garage?)

d. purchase the 4 bare Avons from national tyres on saturday morning, drive car to MOT garage on afternoon and ask em to fit the tyres there before the test.

reason being i feared that by goin there on old tyres i thought it might fail the £35 mot test so i'd have to change tyres and then re-book the test for another £35

i dunno, tis the first time i've done this. thought i'd ask here first

 

[butta]

take the wheels and fit the tyres first because if you get an mot then get pulled over on the way to the tyre place both you and the mot bloke will be in trouble and most garages dont have tyre fitting equipment unless they sell tyres themselfs

 

[asdame]

i had a chat with me work m8s and they advise that cos the cars not taxed or mot its not legal to drive it to mot under it's own steam. it's just too risky if there's an accident in that i'd be not covered and be fined and pay the other drivers damage.

bah

so one solution we came up is to
e. jackup and remove me wheels, parent takes em to tyre garage, reinstall, and then on saturday my car'll be towed to the local mot centre by my parents car.

or

f. parent tows me car to middlesbrough National Tyre Autocare on saturday which does both tyres AND mot, where they'll change me tyres and then test the car. (i think this is my best option)

 

[butta]

yep BUT unless the car is on a trailer you will have the same problem (if the car is on a rope etc... it needs to be road legal!)
i would risk it and just drive there but that would be my licence at risk so thats not what im advising you to do