PollyMobiles Rebuild

[h701micra]

AN4 in
AN10 out
As you've said is what id choose a restriction in the return can over-pressurise the bearing housing. Much like a sticky pcv

You need a
1/8bspt to AN4
Turbo inlet (1/2"x20tpi) to AN4
Turbo outlet (7/8") to AN10
AN10 weld-on
2x AN10 female to hose end
2x AN4 female to hose end
Get spare olives too

I'd wait for the new turbo with regards to fittings though


Pros/Cons
Crimped is guaranteed to work, AN/JIC can leak if done incorrectly
Cost variation
Other than that AN/JIC wins
If you change thread you can change the fitting
Any length you need

 

[pollyp]

AN4 in
AN10 out
As you've said is what id choose a restriction in the return can over-pressurise the bearing housing. Much like a sticky pcv

You need a
1/8bspt to AN4
Turbo inlet (1/2"x20tpi) to AN4
Turbo outlet (7/8") to AN10
AN10 weld-on
2x AN10 female to hose end
2x AN4 female to hose end
Get spare olives too

I'd wait for the new turbo with regards to fittings though


Pros/Cons
Crimped is guaranteed to work, AN/JIC can leak if done incorrectly
Cost variation
Other than that AN/JIC wins
If you change thread you can change the fitting
Any length you need

absolute legend m8
those sizes seem to match up to my threads.
what olives? thought you just slip the hose over and then tighten to nut to clamp?

aye I'll wait till the postman makes me happy (don't look too much into that sorta stuff), verify the old/new threads still match, then order more bling fittings

 

[pollyp]

last night I had a slight theory as to why the turbo might have always smoked after long deceleration downhill.

Coasting
when the car tilts downhill & I close the throttle, the deceleration & tilt angle makes the sump oil level slosh forward against the front ot the sump.

now I recall that the oil drain port is "just" above the oil level when static & full, so the slightest sloshing forward will make the oil pool block off the port and may even try to reverse & push fluid back up the drain hose.

the 9mm drain hose itself is prob already too small to gravity drain the oil flooding into the turbo core and the slight flow reversal makes it worse.

while the drain's having trouble ejecting any oil out of the core, the oil feed/pump/high crank rpm is still ramming HP oil through the turbo bearings and dumped into the core.
so with oil quickly building up pressure inside the core and the drain partially restricted and can't flow any more, the next easiest path is out the weakest leaking seals either via the compressor or the turbine.

during coasting, combustion stops and exhaust pressure drops so the turbine seal doesn't have exhaust pressure to fight against this HP oil and leaks past.
once the oil leaks into the turbine housing it just collects cos there's no combustion to burn it.

Accelerating
when I apply throttle to resume combustion, the HP exhaust helps the turbine seal push against the HP oil inside to stop leaking, and the burning hot gases ignite all the oil that's leaked & collected all over the housing into a heavy blue smoke till it's all burnt away. the acceleration sloshes the oil towards the back of the sump to unblock the turbo drain.

if true then the lesson is to fit the biggest drain hole I can (AN10 fitting) and abit higher then the oil level (which is difficult cos the turbo outlet pipe runs straight across the top of the drain hose where it meets the sump)

 

[frank]

but why are your piston crowns still partially damp tho paul ? have you tested for smoke with someone driving behind you ?

 

[pollyp]

but why are your piston crowns still partially damp tho paul ? have you tested for smoke with someone driving behind you ?

I've no idea, I've always suspected the cylinder bore was machined too coarse or wrong angle and retaining too much oil film so that it collects onto the piston top?

the oily dampness appears from all around the edges of the piston. this happened since day1, even if it was bedded on via N/A. if the valve guides were worn and leaking oil into the cylinders under vacuum, would the dampness pattern shape be abit different, more damp towards the inlet side than exhaust?

doesn't smoke when starting. now with standard exhaust she doesn't smoke at all. yes I do need to get someone to follow me with camcorder to see if this standard exhaust setup smokes at all. the turbo would always smoke/steam 20sec after high vacuum (perhaps due to these hose problems all along since day1 eh?)

 

[frank]

imo the oil is being sucked past the oil control rings paul (worse at low throttle/high mani vacuum) hence the damp crown rim, you cant really tell from the drivers seat, but i suspect that the car still currently chuffs blue smoke when booted
there is obviously also an issue with the wet turbine, i had that problem too, it was one of the reasons i ran a .5mm restrictor

 

[pollyp]

imo the oil is being sucked past the oil control rings paul (worse at low throttle/high mani vacuum) hence the damp crown rim, you cant really tell from the drivers seat, but i suspect that the car still currently chuffs blue smoke when booted
there is obviously also an issue with the wet turbine, i had that problem too, it was one of the reasons i ran a .5mm restrictor

the forged pistons only have 6 tiny oil ring drain holes and 2 wrist pin oilers. could this be trapping excess oil film?
think I once tested trying to keep inlet vac low / kept WOT then turn ign off coasting down, look inside and pistons were still damp. seems oil gets past the rings no matter what.
and the plugs always have a white hot ash look to em.

read somewhere that oil drainage are alright with big turbos cos of their size whereas with medium to tiny turbos the oil drainage is a big issue due to limited space and the oil has difficulty exiting so they often tend to smoke.

 

[frank]

the turbo bearings only need to be "bathed" in oil really eh paul, no actual oil pressure inside the chra, a bit like the u bend in a toilet
i tried having the oil return slightly uphill once and it smoked like crazy, that pressure back-up must have only been a couple of psi, i think you only need enough flow to keep the shaft immersed and cooled

 

[frank]

as for the rings, when we used to re-ring the kart engines with the old 1 piece oil control rings we never had any smoke problems (ghetto honed the bores with sandpaper) but when they changed to the 3 piece ones with the expander ring in the middle we had no end of problems (tried different honing methods etc) we used to order the old type and swap pistons over instead

 

[pollyp]

the turbo bearings only need to be "bathed" in oil really eh paul, no actual oil pressure inside the chra, a bit like the u bend in a toilet
i tried having the oil return slightly uphill once and it smoked like crazy, that pressure back-up must have only been a couple of psi, i think you only need enough flow to keep the shaft immersed and cooled

would've thought they're the same as main journal bearings where the shaft floats on a hydrostatic film cusion of pressurized oil?
the toilet flusher system seems a nice analogy for oiling the turbo cartridge.
my tiny drain is just large enough to allow fluid to flow straight out into open space while still flushing.
but the moment the drain outlet becomes submerged/clogged/sloshed it acts like a U-bend and has a hard time draining without the toilet bowl level rising and potentially spilling over (oil leak & smoke).

 

[pollyp]

my sister followed behind my car tday with my camera attached inside (but the non-HD cam didn't capture much detail from such long distance tbh) and she said it didn't smoke much. there's only the slightest little quick misty puff of oil at low 10-20 mph in town when I lift & accelerate in 3rd. so the engine seems fine

 

[Andy_S]

What u could do is do a dyno run or ask can you try and find the problem using their dyno.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[SuperUno]

Or fit a camera pointing at the exhaust tail pipe

 

[pollyp]

Or fit a camera pointing at the exhaust tail pipe

Shall work on that

 

[pollyp]

so I strapped the camera under the backbox and went for a drive

0:13 cold start with no smoke.
1:40 drove around the block to warm up, exhaust steaming from cold pipes, and then check the timing.
6:40 engine warm and timing checked, I went for a drive.
11:40 WOT uphill, the ECU map said it should be running 10-12AFR and it appears to smoke abit rich but the wideband shows a lean 14-15.5AFR?
15:30 another WOT pull, again slight rich black smoke but showing lean.

the wideband giving strange readings of going closed-loop when it should be open-loop, and at one point showed an E8 error so I think this sensor is getting old or contaminated from the oily turbo & trackdays.

 

[pollyp]

just purchased all the new hoses & fittings ahead of the new turbo arriving. not sure if the fittings are the right size (so many different conflicting BSP-NPT-AN thread charts not exactly matching some of my measurements) or if the turbo will use exactly the same threads but can't afford to wait around.

H701 recommended "torque_uk" on ebay and they had all the fittings I was looking for, totalling £72

1 x AN4 to 1/8" BSPP adapter for the engine head



2 x AN4 straight hose fittings



1metre x AN4 stainless braided oil feed hose



1 x AN4 to 1/4" BSPP adapter for the turbo oil feed port



1 x AN4 to 5/8" BSPP adapter for the turbo oil drain port



2 x AN10 straight hose fittings



0.5 metre x AN10 stainless braided oil drain hose



1 x AN10 steel weld-on fitting to MIG weld onto the sump

 

[pollyp]

considering the wideband sensors been kinda slow to heatup and starting to show E8 errors, made worse following the smoking turbo issue, I guess I should buy another £70 sensor before japday just incase. can't believe I brought one back in 2012, then march 2015 and now may 2016? :/
jeezus this is costing me alot these past months.

 

[pollyp]

just realised that the straight AN10 fitting at the sump may possibly foul the wideband or downpipe looking at this pic

so spent another £15 on a AN10 90deg fitting

 

[pollyp]

I am slightly concerned about what timescale my new turbo will be delivered.

Everything is riding on getting the turbo asap, in thought it was gonna be delivered next day.

The basic turbo technics website has no mention of any delivery or build times and some googling shows forum ppl complaining of over 2weeks waiting :\ have to ring em.

 

[h701micra]

If the price of AN stuff deems too good to be true it is. Expensive but will never let you down

 

[Daniel_]

Polly, is it possible to construct the oil return higher up on CG engines?

Everyone in the SR crowd is highly against welding bungs onto sumps due to the high risk of failure. On those engines you can tap straight into the block, like this:

Regarding the wideband, are you using the Bosch LSU 4.2 or 4.9?

 

[pollyp]

FFS friggin fuming at turbo technics! last thursday I googled the s116 turbo on their website and placed the order through their website and got an email to confirm it.

tday I rang sales to check delivery date, guy ask did I use their website...yup.
ahh he says cos their website is soo old outa date (yeah go figure) it doesn't process orders there.

W.T.F? so he can see my order details there but the order & payment didn't go through..nope they have to setup some account before placing order.
oh ffs so where the feck did that payment go?

I asked if they have em ready in stock or built from scratch, they're each built to order.
erm how long, upto 5 work days. wth japday is 14th next week fck off.

erm ok if my order hasn't been processed and you take THAT long to get to me, I'm gonna try ring another company that already has em ready...

rang CGB Motorsport (a renault 5 GT turbo specialist), they have all sorts of stage 1-3 turbos ready waiting in stock for next day delivery!
http://www.cgbmotorsport.net/turbo-technics-stage-1-t2-turbo-996-p.asp

fcking yess please I don't care how much, send the fker here asap.
so it £527 including the £72 surcharge and £8 delivery. once I've returned my old turbo back to refund the surcharge it'll end up costing me £455.

asked bout oil line fitting sizes, says they're same as the renault 5 lines so straight swap. but mines a conversion, he doesn't have the thread info at hand, meh.

what about oil restrictor? nope not needed or included. if its needed, they'll include it. only turbos they've seen with restrictors are the ball bearing types.

gawd what a waste of my time. gonna call back turbotech to cancel/delete any of my orders/accounts.

 

[pollyp]

Polly, is it possible to construct the oil return higher up on CG engines?

Everyone in the SR crowd is highly against welding bungs onto sumps due to the high risk of failure. On those engines you can tap straight into the block, like this:

Regarding the wideband, are you using the Bosch LSU 4.2 or 4.9?

The turbo drain port is too low to plumb towards the block without a serious kink restriction or slight u-bend and the compressor outlet pipe is also in the way.

It's a LSU 4.2

 

[pollyp]

new turbo gonna arrive any minute tday

just spotting the pic last night that the oil drain could be a flange

so I may have to order a AN10 oil drain flange on ebay

 

[pollyp]

New Turbo

Tday is a happy day I received my new turbo technics T2 stage 1 turbo from CGB motorsports, new turbo gaskets and ticket passes for JapDay

fitting instructions

Turbo Technics model S116
Serial #16D01X
for a Renault 5GT

I send my old turbo back to CGB

all balanced to 0.3G at 100k rpm

and inspection sign off

comes with vibration test results

look at this little beauty

yay the drain is exactly the same screw type so no need to order any flange adapter

-13 marking on the turbine housing for some sorting reason

how nice of em to fit this adapter, this could mean I could fit the AN fitting straight on?

wastegate actuator number 10364-04
according to turbo technics it's a 12.3psi / 0.85bar unit
http://www.turbotechnics.com/components/t2actuator.htm

clean turbine

ID stamp

the same 5/8" BSP oil drain port as the old one

for the WG actuator lines, I'm gonna remove this compressor housing grub screw and swap the hose fitting from the old compressor.

0.48 A/R ratio on the compressor housing

a H mark on the turbo core towards turbine and a K2 marking towards the compressor

actuator locking nuts

old drain adapter fits straight on to verify the threads match

comes with new turbine housing studs

turbine housing marked as 0.47 A/R ratio

fresh machined WG port

noticed this little scratch in the compressor blade (for balancing?)

and a speck of metal dirt

new gaskets arrived too

will be clocking the housings to the correct position next.
awaiting new hoses soon.

then I can begin the long task of removing the difficult sump and reweld a new AN fitting onto it.

 

[pollyp]

looking back at 2010, my old WG actuator label also said 10364-04 so they both have the same 12.3psi setting

 

[karlj]

Almost too nice to get oily

 

[pollyp]

Almost too nice to get oily

Yes can just lick it or wanna keep it preserved as jewellery.

 

[karlj]

Yes can just lick it.

There's an image

 

[Agent_Sm1th]

Is it easy to rotate the housings on this one. Doesn't void your warranty does it? Looks very nice.

 

[pollyp]

Is it easy to rotate the housings on this one. Doesn't void your warranty does it? Looks very nice.

real easy to clock the housing, just loosen 4 bolts for the turbine side and at the compressor side you just unhook the c-clip and turn. doesn't affect warranty at all.

 

[pollyp]

more detailed assessment. the WG actuator has this much preload

here's the compressor wheel, note the balancing grinding on the nut

turbine end. balancing grinds on the nut

more balance marks on the compressor

speck of metal debris blown clear and all oil residue wiped clean

this grub screw port was abit tight

it bleeds air from the housing. will be used to control the actuator

slight mark from the c-clip

little rib notch for the c-clip to rest against

markings on the outlet

carefully used a tight allen with extension to unscrew the grub

to expose the bleed port

screw the hose nipple on

the big c-clip wasn't fully clean so I wire brushed it

reassembled the compressor onto the core with the compressor outlet & oil drain both pointing down

new turbine housing

fresh machined WG

can just see the WG port and where the gases spiral around the housing

these bolt holes go straight into the housing

machined flange holes. I'll need to weld some nuts underneath here

view of the turbine port from gases pov. the clamping bolt hole at top and the WG port at the bottom

fitted the turbine and studs but tomorrow will need to take it back off to weld the manifold nuts underneath the housing flange.

 

[Agent_Sm1th]

Why do you want to weld nuts on. Can you not access them when it's fitted?

 

[pollyp]

Why do you want to weld nuts on. Can you not access them when it's fitted?

Makes installing the manifold bolts easier and to stop the nuts vibrating loose off.

 

[Low Rider]

Never had an issue with nuts working loose on the manifold/turbo flange. I have got a Cu gasket, so perhaps the distinct lack of give provides a good clamping arrangement.

I use Nordlocks on the down pipe to offer protection for the Zircotec coating and to make sure it stays put.

 

[Skinner_87]

I use Nordlocks on the down pipe to offer protection for the Zircotec coating and to make sure it stays put.

Would you recommend the Zirco coating Dave?

 

[pollyp]

Never had an issue with nuts working loose on the manifold/turbo flange. I have got a Cu gasket, so perhaps the distinct lack of give provides a good clamping arrangement.

I use Nordlocks on the down pipe to offer protection for the Zircotec coating and to make sure it stays put.

happened twice on trackdays where the high freq vibration simply loosens 1 or 2 like an impact gun.

cadwell park
https://www.micra.org.uk/threads/pollymobiles-rebuild.35251/page-119#post-704086

and blyton park
https://www.micra.org.uk/threads/pollymobiles-rebuild.35251/page-137#post-726199

 

[pollyp]

before welding the nut to the turbo flange, test the settings on a similar thickness piece. running at Max/2 voltage with wire speed 7 gave good penetrating smooth stable weld but at the end of welding, the wire frequently continues burning/balling up towards the contact tip and sometimes jam.
turning up the wire speed to 7.5-8.0 helped reduce the balling up but builds up too much metal. just have to deal with the balling up since it's just tacking stuff.

tacked the nuts in place

flange surface is abit scratchy so I sanded most of it down

the bolts holes at the front of flange wasn't fully tapped all the way through so fixed that

turbine housing bolted up with some lock washers

manifold bolted up

installed the actuator

fit new studs and embow gasket

but this ain't right

this corner ain't sealing

the gasket fits the pulsar GTIR elbow but the T2 housing is slightly smaller

so notice on the old gasket at the left side where the T2 housing just touches the GTIR elbow by 2-3mm

so guess I'll be reusing the old gasket

turbo assembled & ready.

tday I missed the postman with the new hoses etc as I was in the garage at the back so gonna pickup tomorrow. meanwhile I can begin removing the sump and start prepping it for the new drain fitting

 

[Low Rider]

Would you recommend the Zirco coating Dave?

For me it made a significant differenct to under bonnet temperatures, (which was the objective), as the exhaust system has a large surface area being a top mounted turbo. We also used it on the etype but went for the performance white to match the car. It made an even bigger difference there as the uncoated headers would heat up the passenger compartment a lot and make the car quite uncomfortable. There is however a lot of piping very close to the footplate / tunnel. Coated it's barely noticeable.

It's not cheap stuff but it is bloody good and does what it claims in thermal terms. Nothing in it 'performance wise' though.

 

[pollyp]

after running N/A for afew days, the wideband sensor in the standard manifold only has a light dusting of soot compared to the heavy coking of soot with the old turbo

removed the sump, almost forgot what a PITA it is having to remove the downpipe, lower brace, swaybar, and center beam to drop the sump.

all intact

Hmm one of the windage tray bolts has vibrated off, can't find it in the sump yet

oil pickup collected just light fluffs of sealant and dunno if it could be peeled paint from the sump walls

rear end intact

the drained sump. really no point painting the insides of sumps cos the oil preserves it anyway

the epoxy sealed oil drain I'll have to cut out

oil drain from inside. the old TIG weld prob has alot of porosity. I'm wondering whether to cut the old fitting off and simply weld the new one on, or cut that section out and weld a new thicker reinforcing plate over it with the new fitting?

the printed engine mount insert has broken up abit from the harsh vibrations

can see how the hollow sections have been crushed. gonna redesign with more filleted edges to reduce crack points and print it out as a solid piece

 

[mik]

best car guy ever

loving it that you are still around!

 

[pollyp]

best car guy ever

loving it that you are still around!

thank you Mik
life may go up or down but kasandra's always been there for me and my passion is still here
will be nice to catch up with you and everyone at jae

 

[pollyp]

Collected the new AN hoses & fittings today

1/8" BSPP to AN4 adapter
has an inner bore of 4.3mm so it's only 1mm less restrictive than the old 3.5mm hose feed, but considering the turbo oil feed port size measured later on, it's close enough tbh.

thread matches the old adapter so will fit into the head oil port fine

AN4 Hose end
4.3mm bore

AN4 stainless braided hose
5.5mm bore

AN4 to 1/2" BSPP
has a 4.3mm bore

but here we have a big problem, it doesn't fit!

the outer dia is slightly too big

the 1/2" BSPP thread pitch is slightly too coarse

the adapter that came with the new turbo has a AN5 size tip. the AN4 head I ordered has a 4.3mm bore while the AN5 adapter from the new turbo has a bigger 5mm bore

the AN4 & AN5 heads have similar thread pitch

Turbo oil feed port
has a port size of 5mm whereas the old turbo had 5.5mm

Turbo oil drain port
the same 13.5mm port as the old turbo

AN10 to 7/8" BSPP
has a 12.25mm bore

but the thread is wayy too coarse and won't fit

AN10 hose end
has a 11.5mm bore (just 1.5mm bigger than the old hose, would be better if it was 13.5mm but it's at least an improvement)

AN10 stainless braided hose
has a 14mm bore

AN10 90deg hose end
for the sump fitting

AN10 steel weld-on fitting
for welding onto the sump and has a 12.4mm bore

 

[pollyp]

ok so I need resolve this issue physically rather than guessing online cos I dunno the exact matching thread size and would be wasting time waiting for orders.
so I drove to afew local hydraulics places to locate a matching adapter.

the first shop didn't have any suitable matches or would have to order some fittings over few days. nope no chance, need it now.

went to second shop, the guy was just about to start lunch break but gave it a look.
ideally I'd like to find adapters where I can still utilise the AN4 & AN10 fittings I've just received but matching the turbo ports odd threads seemed troublesome.

my worst case option I dread would be to utilise the adapter that came with the turbo and I'd have to send all the hoses back and upgrade to bigger AN5 oil feed fittings, meaning more wasted time & money.

the solution was to get an AN4 adapter and custom machine the other end down to 1/2" UNF 20tpi to fit the turbo, so now I can simply use the AN4 hose fittings

for the drain side, my old adapter goes from metric 22mm to 5/8 UNF and they added afew adapters to convert to a AN10.

costed just £10 for the two adapters and I can now use the AN4/AN10 fittings but the messy drain fitting conversion is too long

so lets join these two adapters together. verified it's steel so can weld em.

cut the obsolete threads off

grinded/sanded the faces flat.
the AN10 fitting is 12.2mm bore while the metric 22 fitting for the turbo is a larger 12.75mm bore.
so to chamfer the sudden step difference and to help keep things concentric, I drilled a slight 12.5mm hole into the AN10 fitting and use the drill bit to keep them lined up during welding

tacked & welded

grinded flat for the socket tool

here's the chamfered hole size difference

it all fits together nicely now and the amount of overhang matches the old hose fittings

the complete series of fittings

now the new series of port sizes appear much better

now to replace the sump drain fitting, I covered the insides to keep out dirt

time to chip all this epoxy off

that epoxy certainly did it's job of bonding / sealing hard onto the metal.

there's a dilema of either:
- cutting the whole section out and welding a new thicker plate on.
pros: eliminate the porous cracked TIG weld, have fresh smooth metal to weld new adapter onto, can relocate adapter towards middle of that rib section, stiffer mounting plate
cons: more time cutting, drilling & carefully matching the new plate, welding a large plate section that'll be submerged below oil level induces higher risk of oil leak if my welds ain't perfect.

- just cut the old adapter off and weld the new one straight over the previous TIG weld.
pros: quick & easy, less risk of oil leak
cons: welding over previous porous TIG weld (but can always apply more MIG weld), same thin sump sheet metal that can flex/crack

decided option 2 is best.

 

[karlj]

If your sump leaks, let me know Paul and I'll chuck one in the post for you

 

[pollyp]

If your sump leaks, let me know Paul and I'll chuck one in the post for you

cheers karl.
considering the sheer amount of work in custom precision welding this sumps oil control setup, I'll only replace if it was completely irrepairable.

 

[karlj]

Oh yeah I forgot about the amount of work you'd put in it

 

[pollyp]

Oh yeah I forgot about the amount of work you'd put in it

lol yup another customised, pita to replace, part of the car.
the sacrifice of difficult replacement for higher performance.

 

[h701micra]

Coming together nicely Paul

 

[karlj]

The offers there if you want it Paul, saves you hunting for a half decent one in a scrappies