Max Power K10... forget cost :)

[pietro]

Is it possible to get 80-100bhp from a 1.0 K10? I am not interested in the 1.2 engine although I am interested in other differences between the models such as carb's, cams, etc

Are these mods possible and anyone selling or know where to get the below?

Performance manifold (BHP increase?? anyone know)

Performance exhaust back box (BHP increase?? anyone know)

Performance air filter (BHP increase?? anyone know)

Kent Cam (BHP increase?? anyone know)

Polished and ported head (BHP increase?? anyone know)

Electronic brakerless ignition (BHP increase?? anyone know)

Re-jetted standerd or Weber Carb, possibly re-jetted (BHP increase?? anyone know)

Would the above work... you suggestions and tips would be appreciated. Tell me what you know!

 

[Andrew]

Is it possible to get 80-100bhp from a 1.0 K10? I am not interested in the 1.2 engine although I am interested in other differences between the models such as carb's, cams, etc

Not many people dyno K10s, so not many people know power gains. It's pretty much all anecdotal evidence all the way.

But I can tell you for sure that you won't get 100BHP out of a 1l NA engine.

The MA10 produces 53 lbft/l. Most 2 valve per cylinder engines run about 65 lbft/l. It's possible, with ported heads, improved manifolds, longer duration cams, to get up to about 75lbft/l. If it was producing this much torque at a redline of 6k, you'd be pushing about 86BHP (it won't though, so expect less). Only way to get power above this is to raise the redline, which is a lot of work.

The peak torque on the MA series is at a really low rpm (3600rpm and 3200rpm for the MA10 and MA12 respectively). This is probably because the engine can't get enough air above these RPMs, as there are no design features (cam timing, long inlet runners etc.) that would cause this characteristic.

Without turboing the engine, the best mods would probably be porting the head and a custom inlet manifold. Injection would probably go a long way as well, but then you are better off with another engine.

 

[Pete]

custom inlet manifold with re-conditioned hitachi carb or bike carbs plus a custom made exhaust manifold would be the first thing to do imho.

 

[Titch]

I currently have a Webber carb in the garage not being used. i could be easily persuaded to part since i aint using it.

exhaust manifold look in the ma12 tuning thread as mark has sorted an exhaust manifold for £200 which is a very good price for a custom manifold

once u have the manifold it would be ideal to replace from the silencer back, not just bbox. but it is a start.

make sure you have the timing setup properly. this is one thing unbelievably. because of the age of engine. that it does set it self out slightly due to wear. belt stretch etc.

pm me if your interested in the carb.

Wayne - Quickdraw

 

[pietro]

Hi Andrew,

You sound like you know your stuff! Great bit of knowledge there, thanks!

OK, 86bhp 'ish sounds superb!

For this I need to:

1. Port the head
2. Use a better manifold
3. Get a better cam

Which is the best way to spend money for power gains and in what order? Also what will this work cost?

From the sounds of it the cam should be last?

Also what about carb, air box and exhaust modification? Will they come way down on the list?

Thanks all for your help, keep the advice coming!

 

[Layla]

just drop a CG13 into it

 

[Arnold]

If you want more power to come out the engine, then seriously consider changing the exhaust as a priority! a very restrictive exhaust will reduce performance from the engine so its best to get this replaced when the manifolds are done.

 

[Titch]

firstly do your exhaust and air intake. these are the most restrictive on the ma series engien.
you need better air in (better air filter) a good carb (refurbed huitachi or webber- this is still undecided which is better. some people swear by webber. some by hitachi)
and exhaust manifold - 4-2-1 branched

wayne

 

[pietro]

Where can I get on the cheap:

A sport camshaft?

A better air filter?

A custom manifold?

A better coil?

Any second hand ones around?

Also has anyone dyno'd the K10 1.0?

 

[micra man]

Yeah many parts of the MA10 are restrictive, this includes the air filter, inlet and outlet manifolds and exhaust. A performance exhaust, custom exhaust manifold and k&n gave my car a 10BHP increase but I feel that this could be bettered with a custom inlet manifold and better uprated carb. Nobody has ever really tuned the ma10 so nobody really knows for sure but I reckon that mid 80's could be achieved with some work and dedication. Also, just out of curiosity why is it a Max Power k10?? Hope this helps.

 

[quickdraw]

wants max power from it :glare:

 

[micra man]

Doh lol!!!

 

[pietro]

How can you be sure the exhaust and intake are restrictive? Back pressure is needed I thought?

 

[Mark]

Performance manifold, Performance exhaust back box

I have 4-2-1 manifold and it has made quite a difference, for full stainless steel exhaust system including 4-2-1 manifold your looking at over £400.

Performance air filter

worth doing as its a cheap mod.

Kent Cam

kent dont do k10 cams i've asked them but piper will re-profile your original cam, use a 1.2 cam as it has higher lift as standard.

Polished and ported head

I was told not to take my cylinder head off so up to you really, depends how much you spend and what is done to the cylinder head for power increase.

Electronic brakerless ignition

mine has this already and is standard on facelift k10's!

Re-jetted standerd or Weber Carb, possibly re-jetted (BHP increase?? anyone know)

I prefer the Weber now its working properly, get your carb set up on a rolling road.


but why oh why do it to a 1.0????? you'll break the gearbox/clutch as it wont take the power. my box shattered within a week after having my car set-up properly,

The MA10 produces 53 lbft/l. Most 2 valve per cylinder engines run about 65 lbft/l.

ma12 is 69Ib.ft!! its beyond me why some chose a less powerful engine to tune!

MA12's do have loads more power than the 1 litre, mine sits on the needle in fifth at 6200rpm with the 5 speed close ratio and probubly does 120mph and can do 60 in 9 seconds. but now needs a new gearbox

 

[Ed]

MA12 is not as strong. I am not going to repeat that again, its been proven so many times in the past.

Read this for the truth on engine potential http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/power2.htm. It certaintly is possible to get 100bhp/L from an engine, and indeed more but you have to question weather the cost is really worth it. The MA10 bottom end is perfectly capable of 7000RPM plus, the only reason it is utterly pointless to try this is because the top end is so incapable of flowing air at this engine speed. With this changed it would be vital.

I'm going to mention cost again, because this is the REALISTIC figure to get the power you want from this engine:

Head flow work (inch large valves etc) £600
Cams £150
Exhaust manifold and decent whole system £350-400
Carbs and intake manifold - to do this properly your looking at around 3-400, unless you get lucky, you will need downdrafts as side draft carbs simply do not fit too well between the head. There are other options, such as bike carbs but it all depends on your luck/skill.

Total around £1500, before the car is even set up and had RR time, for a gain if perhaps at most 40-50BHP.

Is it worth it, no not really. You can do an engine conversion to say a GA16DE done well for around the same and have potential for huge powergains etc.

Ed

 

[Andrew]

But I can tell you for sure that you won't get 100BHP out of a 1l NA engine.

I don't think it is possible for him (this guy, or any other person on the MSC with a normal job and a brain) to get 100BHP/l. It simply requires too much money for it to happen.

Read this for the truth on engine potential http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/power2.htm. It certaintly is possible to get 100bhp/L from an engine, and indeed more but you have to question weather the cost is really worth it.

He quotes 80ftlb/l for a highly tuned 2v/cyl engine. At 6000rpm that equates to about 95HP. I think that there are inherent problems with the MA10 that would prevent you flowing enough air above 6000rpm to allow the redline to be raised. Yes, the internals could take it, but you would gain nothing in respect to optimum gear changes. I don't know what these inherent problems are, but it has the lowest peak torque out of any normal engine I know of, and just shouts that something deep down is wrong with the design.

I don't think anyone will ever get 100BHP out of an MA10. If they do, they have more money than sense.

 

[Beachboy]

its easy to get 100bhp/l on modern car engines. k11 engine is easy to do this (£1000). but not the ma10 just to follow this thread right. i take it andrew you mean the ma10 only anyway as thats what the thread is about.

 

[Ed]

I think that there are inherent problems with the MA10 that would prevent you flowing enough air above 6000rpm to allow the redline to be raised. Yes, the internals could take it, but you would gain nothing in respect to optimum gear changes.

I am almost inclined to agree for part of this statment. For one I feel that the way the inlet ports on the MA10s head are spiraled to help fuel atomisation will impair the airflow at high speeds, infact I'm positive of this. However the MA12 does not have these, and it may be worthwile to take measurments from the MA12s head to see if it will seal correctly on a MA10 block (Which I think it may). This aside however I definately dont agree there are any inherent faults in it. Consider the march ST. The head in this is able to shift vast amounts of air right upto the red line, and stock spec makes max torque at 4800 RPM. I still suspect that the cams have alot to speak for in the MA NA series engiens.

Finally gear ratios, i think would be fine, they are not really different to any other cars of more power, they are capable of 100bhp also, but one thing for sure the clutch will need stronger spring plates.

Ultimately still agree on price to BHP = poor. Put a CG13DE in it, that would be so nice

Ed

 

[pietro]

Thanks for the advice guys. The reason for the 1.0 is that I have one with 23k miles, it is perfect.

I have been thinking about using Nitros Oxide (NOS). For some quick easy fun would this work or would combustion temps become to high and melt the head?

Advice required.

Found this cheap, presume it would work:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=75221&item=7171194628&rd=1#ebayphotohosting

-- Was told this by seller:

"It will work on anything with a carb.Each refill lasts aprox 15 seconds I would advise a double kit for a car."

 

[pietro]

What abou NOS in a 1.0 K10?

Is it possible?

 

[Ed]

I have cleaned up this thread, and removed all the unnecessary posts. Nos would be fine on a K10 you could do 25bhp with no problems, and I dont see 50 bhp progressive system any prob either.

 

[Ed]

You can forget that ebay auction also. It will be useless.

 

[pietro]

So would this nos kit work well on a standerd K10 1.0? Has anyone tried this? How can I be sure 26bhp NOS is safe?

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7988282558&fromMakeTrack=true

Please advise all.

 

[Ed]

well the ST is almost he same bottom end, and I'm making over 170BHP on mine!

 

[Andrew]

If you could have added the power by other means (porting, manifolds, cams, etc.) then nitrous oxide is safe. When the nitrous oxide breaks down into nitrogen and oxygen, it actually has the effect of lowering peak combustion temperature, so pistons shouldn't be roasted.

I'm not sure what the deal is with needing extra fuel though.

 

[Mark]

you'll go through a few gearboxes with 80-100bhp+

 

[Slim]

you will only go through gearboxes if you mistreat them

MA series with 4 branch exhaust manufold, full system, aftermarket air filter and a weber carb? In my opinion, its no better than a bog standard MA10 engine, except its not as smooth, louder, worse on fuel and looses its bottom end torque.

IF you want to go fast, simply get a faster car, or put a bigger engine in.