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turbomike
Guest
Will any actuator do on my march turbo?I could get a brand new hks item for a 200sx.I could then wind the boost up to 600mmHg!
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ohc_turbo
Guest
what turbos are use on the ma10et?
AMY
Official MSC Trader
most actuators are different, they have a different spring rates and are usually different shapes with different length arms etc etc.
You could shim the actuator to give more pre load, but as Ed says use a bleed valve, or as I prefer a relief valve, unless your actuator is knackered that is. I have a spare HKS in car electronic boost controller lying about, I may be persuaded to part with it, let me know if you are interested.
You can adjust boost in many ways,
1. Make bleed holes in the actuator vacuum hose (make sure you have a decent boost gauge before you try this) Heat a pin and melt small holes in the actuator hose, therefore bleeding pressure away from the actuator allowing the wastegate to remain shut untill higher boost levels are reached.
FREE
2. Buy a bleed valve or relief valve: a bleed valve is an adjustable version of above, however this causes a leek in the system can allow the wastegate to start creeping open before your desired boost level is reached. A relief valve is a sealed unit comprising of a spring loaded bearing or seal, which can be adjusted to open when a specified ammount of boost 'overcomes' the spring pressure, therefor the wastegate stays shut until the required boost level is reached and there are no atmospheric leaks.
CHEAP
3. Shim the actuator, this basically involves placing washers between the actuator and the point that it mounts to the turbo housing to give the actuator sping more tension, it therefor requires more boost pressure to overcome it.
VERY CHEAP but fiddly no way of accurately adjusting boost.
4. Adjuatable wastegate actuator, does exactly as described, can be more awkward to adjust than a bleed or relief valve. The actuator spring can be preloaded by adjusting the wastegate pressure via an adjustable threaded arm.
STARTING TO GET EXPENSIVE
5. EBC electronic boost controller: allows for accurate adjustment of boost from inside the car, as simple as pressing a button. requires a bit of time to setup.
Probably most expensive
Before you start to mess with boost pressure I would recommend getting a good boost gauge so you know where you are.
Cheers
Amy
You could shim the actuator to give more pre load, but as Ed says use a bleed valve, or as I prefer a relief valve, unless your actuator is knackered that is. I have a spare HKS in car electronic boost controller lying about, I may be persuaded to part with it, let me know if you are interested.
You can adjust boost in many ways,
1. Make bleed holes in the actuator vacuum hose (make sure you have a decent boost gauge before you try this) Heat a pin and melt small holes in the actuator hose, therefore bleeding pressure away from the actuator allowing the wastegate to remain shut untill higher boost levels are reached.
FREE
2. Buy a bleed valve or relief valve: a bleed valve is an adjustable version of above, however this causes a leek in the system can allow the wastegate to start creeping open before your desired boost level is reached. A relief valve is a sealed unit comprising of a spring loaded bearing or seal, which can be adjusted to open when a specified ammount of boost 'overcomes' the spring pressure, therefor the wastegate stays shut until the required boost level is reached and there are no atmospheric leaks.
CHEAP
3. Shim the actuator, this basically involves placing washers between the actuator and the point that it mounts to the turbo housing to give the actuator sping more tension, it therefor requires more boost pressure to overcome it.
VERY CHEAP but fiddly no way of accurately adjusting boost.
4. Adjuatable wastegate actuator, does exactly as described, can be more awkward to adjust than a bleed or relief valve. The actuator spring can be preloaded by adjusting the wastegate pressure via an adjustable threaded arm.
STARTING TO GET EXPENSIVE
5. EBC electronic boost controller: allows for accurate adjustment of boost from inside the car, as simple as pressing a button. requires a bit of time to setup.
Probably most expensive
Before you start to mess with boost pressure I would recommend getting a good boost gauge so you know where you are.
Cheers
Amy
I was expecting a post there of alot ill truths. Dont know why been a funny day, however thats pretty spot on except for the spring ball type valves dont nearly work as well as those claim. However either that or Bleed valve will do you fine. If you want to be really picky, feed the bleed pipe connector back into the inlet somwhere after the airflow meter, so your not loosing metered airflow.
Ed
Ed
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turbomike
Guest
Wow!Thanks very much for your reply amy i think your idea of using a reliefAMY said:
valve is the best as 700mmHg is plenty to make things happen a little faster and my airflow meter and lambda sensors should stop it running lean.I jus want to get closer to starlet turbos and the boost runs out that bit too quickly.You seem to know your stuff when it comes to forced induction what car do you drive?
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turbomike
Guest
I dont know there are no markings on it it must be a nissan item.ohc_turbo said:
turbomike said:
You wont notice the difference between this and a normal bleede valve.
Not so, The MA10t does NOT have an intercooler so be carefull. You may want to retard the ignition 1 degree JUST to be on the safe side. And ONLY use optimax.
Starlet turbos are all around 113+bhp. You have 75. I can tell you now that adding 200mmHg approx 0.2 bar will gain you around 10bhp. The interesting thing is the March Superturbo runs 700mmHg and makes 110bhp. It does this by having an intercooler and different cam profile, and obv more agressive map.
Ed
AMY
Official MSC Trader
Hi turbomike, I currently have 2 celica gt4's 2 gto twin turbo's,a Lancia delta, a saph cossie 4x4, (Which hopefully I have just sold!! possibly the most over rated car ever) a Delica 2.5td and of course the micra's, but my line up is costantly changing lol!!
As for the relief valve V bleed valve, as Ed says they are much the same, but I would honestly say that I have had better results with the relief valve on my celica's, but I have never tried one on a micra. There are a few diferent designs about, perhaps either myself or Ed has been unlucky with one or the other?
The one advantage of a bleed valve is that you can get the in car adjustable types fairly cheap.
Cheers
Amy
As for the relief valve V bleed valve, as Ed says they are much the same, but I would honestly say that I have had better results with the relief valve on my celica's, but I have never tried one on a micra. There are a few diferent designs about, perhaps either myself or Ed has been unlucky with one or the other?
The one advantage of a bleed valve is that you can get the in car adjustable types fairly cheap.
Cheers
Amy
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turbomike
Guest
I dont mean to be rude in contradicting you but the march has 85 bhp at 6000 rpm it says so on the power graph printed on the steering wheel!Ed said:
Please recommend a make of bleed valve that will fit my micra Amy as i have never fitted one before,Thanks.AMY said:
Dear Ed, please estimate the power output of my micra.Its got 85 bhp standard it has 132000 kms on the clock.I will add the bleed valve and turn up the boost to 700mmHg fit an intercooler fit the full system it already has the cat gutted out and an apexi filter.Please estimate the power output before i rolling road it,thanks.Ed said:
Ok I thought that all March Turbos were 75bhp... strange. Ok in that case at 700mmhg youll be around 96bhp. BUT and I stress this use ONLY top grade fuel. You really really should fit an intercooler - I cant stress that enough. To give you an idea with intercooler and e-manage I could map one of them for about 120bhp 
Ed
Ed
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ohc_turbo
Guest
definatly get a intercooler before you turn the boost up and fit some colder plugs and retard it, if it runs the same as ca turbo i used to retard mine 2 degrees to make it 13.
the cooler will probably increase the power by 5bhp on its own, the engine will love one, also you will achive a chatter which is cool
the cooler will probably increase the power by 5bhp on its own, the engine will love one, also you will achive a chatter which is cool
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ohc_turbo
Guest
i would be dubious about doing it though, i would say at least retard timing, colder plugs and optimax
It will be a fine, a pressure increase of 13.3% is nothing to be worried about provided he does as I said. Retarding the ignition is an exreme bodge as it will upset the entire map, he will loose in every other respect. From power, driveability and economey. Its not a good choice, and certaintly not good pratice at all. As it happens the ecu will see it as extra load and there will be enough mapping in the ecu to compensate and naturally pull the ignition back anyway. Colder plugs possibly, they should be plenty cold enough as it is - Turbo mike you may want to change your plugs to the same as used in a GTIR and gap them at 0.8mm.
AMY
Official MSC Trader
Turbo mike:
I use this relief valve and have had good results http://www.k1ano.co.uk/ {Click on boost controllers}
This one on ebay looks ok
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-Turbo-Man...ryZ72205QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I'm not too familiar with the march turbo, but you aren't talking about a serious boost increase, i'm sure you will be fine with a grade colder plugs (If you tend to be on boost a lot) or like Ed says a smaller gap to help the ignition to cope with the extra demand.
I think Ed is saying that the march turbo ecu has a knock response to retard the ignition timing automatically? is this right Ed?
If you can you should deffinately get an intercooler in there, you will be able to acheive the same power levels with less boost + a cooler (safer) intake charge + better efficiency. Not that I'm trying to sell you things all the time, but I have several intercoolers lying about if you want to embark on an intercooler project.
Cheers
Amy
I use this relief valve and have had good results http://www.k1ano.co.uk/ {Click on boost controllers}
This one on ebay looks ok
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-Turbo-Man...ryZ72205QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
I'm not too familiar with the march turbo, but you aren't talking about a serious boost increase, i'm sure you will be fine with a grade colder plugs (If you tend to be on boost a lot) or like Ed says a smaller gap to help the ignition to cope with the extra demand.
I think Ed is saying that the march turbo ecu has a knock response to retard the ignition timing automatically? is this right Ed?
If you can you should deffinately get an intercooler in there, you will be able to acheive the same power levels with less boost + a cooler (safer) intake charge + better efficiency. Not that I'm trying to sell you things all the time, but I have several intercoolers lying about if you want to embark on an intercooler project.
Cheers
Amy
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turbomike
Guest
Thanks for your sound advice only last night i was looking at my plugs wondering were they right what ones go in a gtir?Ed said:
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turbomike
Guest
An intercooler would be nice but im kinda restricted for space where would i put it without cutting my mad front bumper?i have gotten a really small battery and tray to save space but still i have an awkward airflow meter taking up space.Will a cooler cause lag and where do you fit the dump valve on a system with a cooler?I was looking at fuel in Demon Tweeks that raises octane levels to 105 and is meant to be great for turbo engines,id like your opinion please.Also,how much for the cooler?!!AMY said:
AMY
Official MSC Trader
Have you got any pictures of your engine bay and front bumper? i have a few different intercoolers, but from what you say they might be too big for your engine bay. You may be able to mount one 'Front mount' in front of the radiator, or 'top mount' above the engine the latter would require a scoop, like on the super turbo, this would give less lag as the air does not have so far to travel. If you have an air flow meter you will need to choose your dump valve carefully, does you car have a standard recirculating dump valve? It's not a problem to plumb in a dump valve you can buy tubes with flanges attached, or samco can supply a hose with a dump valve fitting.
Mike where are you? Are you in the UK? - Most probably Ireland?
You are right that an intercooler on the March Turbo is a bit messy, Really the neatest compromise is a top mounted one with a vent in the bonnet. Ok, this is not ideal for traffic, and you will get heatsoak, and will spoil the look of the car, but its better than nothing, and an acceptible technical compromise. Other than that the best and really only way is to rotate the compressor housing round on the turbocharger, and pipe to the front. Does your March have aircon? I know that some of them do - If not then you will have plenty of space infront of the rad - you shouldnt need to cut anything visible. You then need to get the pipework back to the inlet manifold. It really is worth doing this as neatly and efficiently as possible. A good flow intercooler is vital to system efficiency. Put it this way, if the intercooler places a 2psi restriction on the inlet at full throttle max power, this will be seen as a 4psi restriction on the exhaust side of the system. This back pressure is unavoidable to a certain degree, but one should design a system to minimise this as much as possible as the benefits are huge.
Dont fall for octane boosters. Its good to keep a couple with you when you cannot get the right fuel but its a bad choice if you have to use them all the time.
The GTI-R plugs will be the right kind of heat range, however you will need the smaller sparkplug socket for them. Gapping them to 0.8mm is just fine. You have the same ignition system as me, and I can run 1.7bar with 0.7mm gap and no spark problems. But its nice to keep a larger spark if possible.
The March turbo ECCS does not have a knock sensor. Ignition is based on RPM throttle position and airflow. More airflow less ignition. The ecu also should have a factroy cut. If there is too much airflow at a given RPM it will compleatly cut fuel delievery, untill you back off the throttle.
Ed
You are right that an intercooler on the March Turbo is a bit messy, Really the neatest compromise is a top mounted one with a vent in the bonnet. Ok, this is not ideal for traffic, and you will get heatsoak, and will spoil the look of the car, but its better than nothing, and an acceptible technical compromise. Other than that the best and really only way is to rotate the compressor housing round on the turbocharger, and pipe to the front. Does your March have aircon? I know that some of them do - If not then you will have plenty of space infront of the rad - you shouldnt need to cut anything visible. You then need to get the pipework back to the inlet manifold. It really is worth doing this as neatly and efficiently as possible. A good flow intercooler is vital to system efficiency. Put it this way, if the intercooler places a 2psi restriction on the inlet at full throttle max power, this will be seen as a 4psi restriction on the exhaust side of the system. This back pressure is unavoidable to a certain degree, but one should design a system to minimise this as much as possible as the benefits are huge.
Dont fall for octane boosters. Its good to keep a couple with you when you cannot get the right fuel but its a bad choice if you have to use them all the time.
The GTI-R plugs will be the right kind of heat range, however you will need the smaller sparkplug socket for them. Gapping them to 0.8mm is just fine. You have the same ignition system as me, and I can run 1.7bar with 0.7mm gap and no spark problems. But its nice to keep a larger spark if possible.
The March turbo ECCS does not have a knock sensor. Ignition is based on RPM throttle position and airflow. More airflow less ignition. The ecu also should have a factroy cut. If there is too much airflow at a given RPM it will compleatly cut fuel delievery, untill you back off the throttle.
Ed
I have afm and I'm using a dump-valve that let's the air go out to the atmosphere and I don't have any problems. That's because the ECCS system that I have cut's the fuel out when gas pedal is released and throttle body sensor sees that throttle is closed. I don't know does MA10ET ECCS-system have this feature, but at least mine has, it's from Nissan EXA/Cherry turbo.AMY said:
By the way, the dump-valve that ventilates the air back to the intake air is called by-pass valve
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turbomike
Guest
I am in wicklow on the east coast of ireland.I need to build power but i want to do it safely with moderate reliability and longevity.I know charade ggti's are dohc 16v but i have seen them put out 160bhp on rollers,surely the micra has some potential.My march has or had air con but has been stripped out.I am a volkswagen mechanic so im handy enough when it comes to the engine.I was thinking of top mounting the cooler as amy and you mentioned but with an air gap and then cutting a hole in the bonnet,i know someone who can fabricate a scoop,or would that look crap?That taken into account what could i turn the boost up to?how big is the exhaust on your car?What about my clutch?Its brand new(spurious)and the only one i could get to fit was one for a Datsun Cherry,will torque shred it?There is street racing in Dublin in the industrial estates and small cars seem to have the better of dohc vtecs and other such cars.What about head gasket failure from high boost levels is there an up rated one available?I was wondering what kind of bhp i could get without changing internals.ThanksEd said:
Ahh I see. Well seeing you have a good idea what your on about that really does help things alot. Get a front mount, do the extra work they are MUCH more effective. You can spin round the intake houseing and drill new holes to take back the waste gate actuator. Still 0.7 bar ~700mmhg should be your limit. The next thing you need to do is put an e-manage on there. Then you need to remap for ignition (the IC will make a big difference) You idealy need to change to a better turbo. I have a HT-10 from a march super turbo if your interested - I will also consider selling my Hybrid HT10, as I have reached the limits from it now. That will do 1.5+ bar.
Anyway I had your car my plan would be this:
Larger turbo
FMIC <<<<<< VITAL.
E-manage
Data logs from e-manage. Larger injectors if necessary. and re-map.
As for the clutch you could get a Nismo March ST Clutch cover. The standard clutch disk is fine as long as you dont slip it. The Nismo pressure cover will withstand 180bhp+ so that is fine.
Finally internals.. Tough one this. I suspect that the piston crowns are the weak spot. On this basis I would say your save to 1.2 bar. Its DET that will kill them so just make sure you dont have any. The MA series engines make a very very distinctive noise if you get det, so you should always know if something goes wrong. However 1.4 bar with bigger turbo e-manage and FMIC with suitable mapping will see you to around 140-150bhp - Thats conservative. I had my March ST dyoned at around 1.4 bar and it made 175bhp. Since then I have done alot more agressive mapping and more boost. I suspect I peak upto 190bhp ish now.
Regardless your never going to keep great realibility with so much power. You would be doing something new so its hard to say what may happen. All I can say is do it right and you should have no surprises.
Ed
Anyway I had your car my plan would be this:
Larger turbo
FMIC <<<<<< VITAL.
E-manage
Data logs from e-manage. Larger injectors if necessary. and re-map.
As for the clutch you could get a Nismo March ST Clutch cover. The standard clutch disk is fine as long as you dont slip it. The Nismo pressure cover will withstand 180bhp+ so that is fine.
Finally internals.. Tough one this. I suspect that the piston crowns are the weak spot. On this basis I would say your save to 1.2 bar. Its DET that will kill them so just make sure you dont have any. The MA series engines make a very very distinctive noise if you get det, so you should always know if something goes wrong. However 1.4 bar with bigger turbo e-manage and FMIC with suitable mapping will see you to around 140-150bhp - Thats conservative. I had my March ST dyoned at around 1.4 bar and it made 175bhp. Since then I have done alot more agressive mapping and more boost. I suspect I peak upto 190bhp ish now.
Regardless your never going to keep great realibility with so much power. You would be doing something new so its hard to say what may happen. All I can say is do it right and you should have no surprises.
Ed
Tee Koo said:I have afm and I'm using a dump-valve that let's the air go out to the atmosphere and I don't have any problems. That's because the ECCS system that I have cut's the fuel out when gas pedal is released and throttle body sensor sees that throttle is closed. I don't know does MA10ET ECCS-system have this feature, but at least mine has, it's from Nissan EXA/Cherry turbo.
By the way, the dump-valve that ventilates the air back to the intake air is called by-pass valve
All Nissan ECCS require a dual piston dumpvalve if venting to air. Infact ANY car with an airflow meter does. I guarantee you will have problems otherwise. The E15ET ECU will nearly be the same as that march turbo one. The ECCS still relies on AFR values at idle. Not built in map tables. In the uk a dumpvalve that puts air back into the system is simply a recirc dumpvalve.
Ed
Well, at least what I've heard from Cherry turbo owners, it cuts out the fuel injection when gas pedal is released = throttle body is closed. I've also seen this myself from the air/fuel ratio meter when I release the gas pedal. With the Uno turbo that I had some years ago, it had problems with dumpvalve. It took the mixture very rich after gear change and nearly every time... big boom from the exhaustEd said:
OK, I didn't know this beforeEd said:
~750mmHg is 1.0 bar, atleast it says so in here: http://www.convert-me.com/en/convert/pressureEd said:
Edit: By the way, how much is the compression ratio of MA10ET?
The fuel cut your talking about is the ignition over run. You are right that when you throttle off fuel and ignition both cut. Effectivly your engine switches off. This is for emissions purposes, and is common on all ECCS. At this point it makes no difference what kind of dumpvalve you have - this problem happens at idle. Now the reason for this is if you had a single piston dumpvalve, at idle there is strong manifold vacume. This vacume would open a single piston dumpvalve, and cause air to enter the engine 1, unfiltered and 2, unmetered. This will casue the car to run lean and most probably stall.
You are exactly right about the mmhg conversion. 1mmhg = 0.001333 bar. The reason I said what I did is that so many people assume that the gauges on their cars (pulsar etc) 0.7mmhg (x100) are in bar i.e. the car is 0.7bar standard, they get disapointed when they increase boost to say 1bar, but in reality that is only 50mmhg or so more. It usually takes to much effort to explain that no, your cars have nearly 1 bar boost as standard. But you are quite right.
As far as i remember the compression ratio on a March turbo is 8.5:1
Ed
You are exactly right about the mmhg conversion. 1mmhg = 0.001333 bar. The reason I said what I did is that so many people assume that the gauges on their cars (pulsar etc) 0.7mmhg (x100) are in bar i.e. the car is 0.7bar standard, they get disapointed when they increase boost to say 1bar, but in reality that is only 50mmhg or so more. It usually takes to much effort to explain that no, your cars have nearly 1 bar boost as standard. But you are quite right.
As far as i remember the compression ratio on a March turbo is 8.5:1
Ed
oh, now I understand what you meant. I'm using a single piston dump-valve, but it is adjustable and I've adjusted it so that it doesn't open on idle. At first I tried to use Saab 9000 Turbo's recirculating dump without the pipe running back, but it opened on the idle and let the air go in - as you already told - unmetered and it caused the engine idle speed vary from 1000-3000 in few second sycles.Ed said:
Ok, thanks for thisEd said:
I also remember reading from somewhere that the compression ratio was 8,5:1 but I wasn't sure.And when this conversation is about boost, I ask your opinion. Is 0,5 bar boost okay with the compression ratio of 9,2:1 when using 98 octane fuel?
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turbomike
Guest
Unfortunately living in Ireland means having very limited services.Nobody will map my ecu or has any knowledge of E-manage(please explain what this is).Electronics in the March have no aftermarket modifications available apart from uasuals t.timers boost controllers etc so its very hard to make a reliable power unit.I have been told by some companies to sell the March and get a Glanza as the head gasket will keep blowing under the pressure!Without changing the turbo or mapping it and with the addition of an fmic and bleed valve what power is achievable?Ed said:
Tee Koo, Correctly set up 0.5bar will be fine at 9.2:1 you may just have to retard the igntiion if you get into trouble every engien responds slightly differently.
Mike, do some searches on the Greddy e-manage. It can be made to fit your car, this will allow you to map fuel and ignition etc.. If you cant do any of this I really wouldn't go above 700mmhg, there is just no way to tell whats going on.
Ed
Mike, do some searches on the Greddy e-manage. It can be made to fit your car, this will allow you to map fuel and ignition etc.. If you cant do any of this I really wouldn't go above 700mmhg, there is just no way to tell whats going on.
Ed
Ed said:
Just thought i'd say that the ep82 starlet GT Turbos are 133 BHP std
and the EP92 Glanza are 135BHP std
The starlets engine is hard to work on.. parts are a pain!
The Engines are known to POP
Umar
