Replacing Piston Rings

[Turtle]

Replacing Piston Rings or Valve Seals

replacing the piston rings

as i mentioned in the other thread... its something I would like to have a crack at, because it might be fun, if a bit hard!!

The problem is, where do I get the new piston rings from?!

Also, has anyone done this and is it an easy job, obviously im gonna need to replace a few other parts as I go (head gasket? etc?) what would these be?

And how much might the average garage charge to do the job?

Thanks in advance

 

[Alienfish360]

I'd say a garage would probably charge a small fortune for it, surely you can pick another engine up cheap enough?

 

[Fordy]

to be honest turtle, its just not worth it the amount of parts you will change and tools you will need to buy it will be quicker and easier just to change the engine

 

[bombz4]

nah do it! im doing it now! new piston rings ur looking bout 100, FULL gasket set 30ish it is quite a task if ur not very mechanicaly minded! and if uve lost ur haynes!!!!! any questions jus ask my father is a mechanic and me n him are doing it at the mo so could probably help you

 

[Turtle]

Crikey! £130!

Well a newer engine would probably be cheaper but it would be fun for me to do this.

Thanks for the offer of help bombz :grinning:

 

[bombz4]

the way i see it if i buy a scrap one it could still have probs where as if i do it it should be 100% *i hope* im hopefully getting a cam done too so itl be bit better when its back!

 

[Turtle]

I still really wanna try this. Its due for its oil change in september, and this is a good time for me to do it.

Ebay will sort me out with the gaskets for £20, while im gonna phone a few places for the rings today.

I'll take it to my garage to get a compression test done on it as soon as I can to confirm the worst.

Ive looked in the haynes and while this is a pretty advanced job for me to be doing, I dont really mind if it fails (i'll get a new engine/car if i cant do it). I wanna be an engineer and I figure this will be fun. :grinning:

So, tell me... exactly what parts do I need before starting the job? My list so far:

Oil
Filter
Head Gasket
some bearing or other??
New piston rings

errr.. odd question, but do I take off the sump and take out the cylinders from below, or take the whole of the top of the engine off and pull them out the top? This is a kind of "muppet working on a ferrari" question, I know its kind of important.

Once ive done all the job maybe i'll write a guide for the members area on how to do it, I can take pics :glance:

 

[JamieGti]

Whoooahh Boy!

Haha, Although I don't doubt your abilities... and it is fun!
Expect your engine to be running like a bag of hammers and ultimatly worse than it was before!
As well as replacing the rings, you MUST clean any carbon off of the in order than you don't cause any scoring in your internals!
It is a COMPLETE and utter nightmare if it's an old block! I done it with an mi16v under supervision of my dad... the engine never ran as well as it used to because the compression ratios of the cylinders were all different due to my rubbish skills! I followed this guys site: http://www.tpub.com/content/engine/14076/css/14076_66.htm

It's fantastic, he's not missed any detail and he's put it in "newbie" talk!

Don't drop anything in the cylinder block!

Good luck with it if you decide to go for it! All the best,

-JGti

 

[Turtle]

gulp.

:glance:

 

[mrmaz]

Try www.enginestuff.co.uk, I've not used them before, but prices seem alot more reasonable than what I've seen above:

Piston Ring Set £35.25
Head Gasket ~£6
Rocker Gasket ~£3
Sump Gasket ~£3
Valve Stem Seals 0.71 ea
or Head Set ~£18 (Head Gasket, I & E Manifold Gaskets, Valve Stem Seals etc (Check exactly what this includes as its a bit unclear))
Timing Belt 82-88 £6 & 89-93 £12

You can also try www.buypartsby.co.uk

I'd change Timing Belt and valve stem seals too. Some may recommend changing the water pump/Timing Belt Tensioner. Bearings and things you'll just have to see.

Alot of work, but a great learning excersise, and when it starts up again, you'll be over the moon. Don't forget you'll need some special tools (Torque Wrench, Valve Spring compressor, piston ring compress etc) so don't forget to add them into the cost.

Good Luck..fwn

 

[JamieGti]

Turn of events!

gulp.

:glance:

Exactly what I done when my dad explained everything! :down:
I've probably made you change your mind!
I think I lied about the tool... I'm sure my friend managed to get the rings off his starlet without the tool iirc? Maybe a pair of pliers! :| DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT IT :lol:
I shouldn't even have mentioned that
Just be delicate and patient... follow that guys guidlines and a Haynes Manual and everything should be fine!

Enjoy! - I didn't mean to put you off! haha!

-JamieGti

I'd change Timing Belt and valve stem seals too. Some may recommend changing the water pump/Timing Belt Tensioner. Bearings and things you'll just have to see.

Alot of work, but a great learning excersise, and when it starts up again, you'll be over the moon. Don't forget you'll need some special tools (Torque Wrench, Valve Spring compressor, piston ring compress etc) so don't forget to add them into the cost.

Yeah, I totally agree. mrmaz seems clued up too! He's correct about the timing belt and valve stems, a worth while thing to do especially the valves. Also have a look at the condition of the block when you've got everything off... If it looks like it's in a bad way... get a new one. If it looks relitively clean, have a bash! If it looks immaculate, give it to a garage! :lol:

Nothing worse than getting them new piston rings in and then hear them bend your valves when your timing belt goes ahaha!

-JGti

 

[Turtle]

haha excellent.

Well now i know where to get the parts!! Im excited now.

I'll get all the parts I need first then wait for a week when I wont need the car. :laugh:

http://www.enginestuff.co.uk/product_info.php/products_id/54530

When it says piston ring set...... is that for 12 rings? or just 3?

Theres 3 rings on each cylinder right?

----

ok i just talked to my local garage, who are always happy to give me advice.

They rekon its more likely the burning oil is caused by the valve stem oil seals. Does this make sense?

He said i'd need to get new oil seals, a valve spring compressor and take the head of the engine off and sort it all out. He said its an easier job than doing the piston rings and its more likely to fix the problem.

What do you think?

----

lol, new seals cost 71 pence

 

[JamieGti]

Praise!

I'd change Timing Belt and valve stem seals too.

Haha! mrmaz pointed this out, have a little read at his post!
It's very helpful!

He's probably right! I just thought you wanted a go at your piston rings rather than sorting your engine out!

It's more than likely the problem, JAP engines are pretty bullet proof when it comes to internals like piston/rings/rods!

Hope these posts help!

-JGti

 

[Turtle]

you legend!

Just had an idea...

I could go to the scrappy, unbolt the head off a 1l engine and bolt it onto mine :laugh:

Then I could take apart my old one for fun before chucking it.

Haha jamie, i love your post titles! :blush:

 

[JamieGti]

Waste not, want not!

Just had an idea...

I could go to the scrappy, unbolt the head off a 1l engine and bolt it onto mine :laugh:

Then I could take apart my old one for fun before chucking it.

Haha jamie, i love your post titles! :blush:

I can't post without a decent witty and topical title!
It's a compulsive disorder! haha! I'm FAR too pedantic!

Good idea, make sure it's a runner and doesn't smoke! If it you fit it to your engine and it's still burning oil... nice try, but no banana... You'll have to fork out for New Rings!

If all goes well... here's a wee idea for your old head:

Clean it up, get it skimmed, polish it up, re-lap the inlet and outlet valves and then replace the valve stem seals! Add a set of cams later when you've got the cash AND...
Voila! one very nice stage 1 cylinder head! Just like mines (minus cams)! Not much on performance but it'll be purrrrring like a kitten! :laugh:

Thanks for the compliment!

-JGti

 

[mrmaz]

Not as witty as some!

haha excellent.

When it says piston ring set...... is that for 12 rings? or just 3?

Theres 3 rings on each cylinder right?

Good question I don't know, it says set but as you say is it that per piston or engine? - let us know, but £140 does sound expensive, be supprised if they sold any at that price!

Yes 3 rings per cylinder sound right, and the picture shows 3 rings but is for illustration only!

With regards to going to scrappy for head etc. Not a bad idea, but I reckon that your making more work for yourself!! Taking two heads off, putting one on or take one off, strip and build it with new stem seals, and put the head back on?

Took me 3.5 hours to change Timing belt the first time (Mums K10), and just over 2 hours the second time (My K10). Got another one to do soon (Brothers K10 and going for a record this time!) but may take the opportunity to change the head gasket as oil is finding its way into the water. And while the heads off change the valve stem seals…etc…etc… So I’ll let you know how long this takes if I get there first…I’ll take pics this time!

Oh I’d cut the timing belt on the one from the scrappy, then you ‘just’ need to get the head off. Maybe cut the exhaust downpipe too! Lift it off with both manifolds on. Should save a lot of time.

IMPORTANT
If you follow the Haynes manual for putting the timing belt back on, it say something like turn the cam (Upper one) 2 turns anticlockwise with the tensioner loose to allow it to correctly tension the belt. (Use a length of wood with two screws correctly spaced to turn the CAM Shaft).

Unfortunately it seems to fail so mention that YOU SHOULD DO THIS WITH THE SPARK PLUGS REMOVED, otherwise the compression in the cylinders causes the Crank Shaft (Lower one) to jump round and the tensioner flies off!! The belt may slip too!!!

If the Belt does slip, then slide it off. Rotate the crankshaft whichever direction takes it the shortest distance so the pointer is at either 3 o’clock or 9 o’clock. Now the pistons are all in a line in the centre of the cylinders (no chance of valves hitting pistons). Line up the CAM Timing Marks, then the Crank Timing mark (Shortest distance i.e quarter turn!) Belt on and try again.

Getting the Crankshaft pulley bolt undone is quite a challenge, post again if you get stuck with this….

Let us know about those piston ring sets.

Oh by the way, Some garages have a special tool that allows them to change the valve stem seals without having to remove the head, so is alot cheaper, Hours labour? They remove the plugs, and force compressed air into the cylinder they want to change the seals on, this pushes against the valves and piston, so the valve spring can be compressed and removed without the valve opening, stem oil seal changed and put back. Might be worth looking into?

Interesting...

 

[JamieGti]

MrMaz... You're just OOZING with knowledge!
I think i've found a new love!

Listen to this guy!

 

[Krian]

Some really good info in this thread :upside:

I've just brought an engine from a scrappy (£30 woo!) plan is to strip it all down, check everything, then if it seems ok swap it over with my old one. I figure that way I've still got a daily ride whilst im doing the work and if i screw up its not too much of a big deal, and I don't lose the car for ages.

But you'll probably hear me begging for help in the next couple of weeks. :laugh:

 

[JamieGti]

Theory of Inevitability!

Some really good info in this thread :upside:

I've just brought an engine from a scrappy (£30 woo!) plan is to strip it all down, check everything, then if it seems ok swap it over with my old one. I figure that way I've still got a daily ride whilst im doing the work and if i screw up its not too much of a big deal, and I don't lose the car for ages.

But you'll probably hear me begging for help in the next couple of weeks. :laugh:

I'm sure mrmaz and I will be here to catch you when you fall!

 

[bombz4]

fix it fit it sorted! any probs again judge price or buy new scrapper engine! mine should be top notch when done and im no expert! (although daddy is in the background if i F up-(think thas ok 2 say!) ) just be carefull! such things as dropping stuff in cylinders! stuff em with blue ragg!!!!!!!! dim probs!!!!!!!!!!!!!:k10: ! over all good luck! and tey it its not that complex!

 

[mrmaz]

MrMaz... You're just OOZING with knowledge!
I think i've found a new love!

Listen to this guy!

:blush::blush::blush:

Some really good info in this thread

I've just brought an engine from a scrappy (£30 woo!) plan is to strip it all down, check everything, then if it seems ok swap it over with my old one. I figure that way I've still got a daily ride whilst im doing the work and if i screw up its not too much of a big deal, and I don't lose the car for ages.

But you'll probably hear me begging for help in the next couple of weeks.

I'm sure mrmaz and I will be here to catch you when you fall!

Well I don't know, depends how heavy Krian is! :glare:

Right! Ummm. Krian, and anyone else whos interested:- I have a magazine artical on stripping and rebuilding a K10 engine. Think its about 3-4 pages which I can scan and email to ya (sometime tonight). Think it might be quite useful. I've updated my profile, so you can (and anyone else interested) email me. [Don't want to put my email address on this post cause of spam robots etc]

Cheers

 

[JamieGti]

Why don't you just start a thread in the K10 tuning section with all the pictures up? (Or upload the Scanned images to photobucket and add a link?)
I'm sure there are plenty of people that are willing to give it a crack!
It might even give them the motivation to do it!

Cheers mrmaz! The world needs more people like you! :blush: You're cetrainly contributing better than most people on here!

-JGti - aka. The "Sook"

 

[Speedle]

dont waste money fixing the one you have get a low millage one from a scrap yard or breakers for £60-£100 most places do a limited garuntee so if the engines pnats they will replace it. loads of scrap yards in the south to choose from

 

[Turtle]

I'd rather repair it, and with all the help and encouragement from this thread, whats stopping me!

Ive just put another litre of oil in it so i'll wait for the level to go down again then do the job and replace the oil at the same time. So i'll probably do it towards the end of september.

Gives me plenty of time to get all the parts and understand exactly how to do it. :grinning:

 

[Arnold]

dont waste money fixing the one you have get a low millage one from a scrap yard or breakers for £60-£100 most places do a limited garuntee so if the engines pnats they will replace it. loads of scrap yards in the south to choose from

i cant see why it shouldnt be attempted if it's an opportunity to learn about the engine and stuff. If i had the time and space, i'd probably do the same with my engine.

 

[mrmaz]

Why don't you just start a thread in the K10 tuning section with all the pictures up? (Or upload the Scanned images to photobucket and add a link?)

Good idea! Okay, I'll give that a try this evening..

 

[Krian]

The whole reason for me doing it is to learn about the engine, and make sure that its running as well as I can possibly get it - I do loads of long distance driving (london to dundee and back again, twice a month!) so I really don't want the engine to break on me just because I wanted to save a little time/cash.

Plus by the time im done I hope to know exactly what people are talking about when they're going on about engines - at the moment its more like trying to read double dutch :laugh:

 

[JamieGti]

Que?

Plus by the time im done I hope to know exactly what people are talking about when they're going on about engines - at the moment its more like trying to read double dutch :laugh:

The proper term for it is: "Double Clutch" :laugh:

It doesn't take long... especially if you're thinking about doin the WHOLE engine!
You're a brave man!

I have alot of respect for learners though... Go for it!

-JGti

 

[Slim]

i wouldnt bother, unless you're gonna do the whole thing. You're gonna want to get the bores honed at least, and maybe a re bore with oversized pistons. Almost certainly you'll need to replace the main shells etc, and possibly have the crank reground etc, so you can easily allow £500 for parts plus the bits of machining you cant do yourself.

 

[Fordy]

no offense but if you dont know how to do it dont do it, going by what a person says on a forum is a bad idea, you got to consider costs like slim has said already and the mess involved like oil on the floor, engine parts everywhere,

and if you get it all stripped down do you know how to check for worn big ends and small ends? and would you know if the bores had picked up or not?
also are you capable to remove a snapped stud or bolt because they will happen?
and then will you know how to put the timing belt on? and set tappets? and timing?

i can just see you doing it and coming on here asking for info and asking "are these ok" or "has the bores picked up" with pictures

im saying all this to make you realise it is much more involved than what people make out on a forum, if they make is sound easy its probably because thay have done it before and have the knowledge on how to do it.

the sheer amount of money on tools and parts you have to get has already writen off the engine off imo just get a good warrantied scrappy engine,

did you see the fully rebuilt ma10 engine on ebay a few days ago he only wanted £45 and thats with gearbox and clutch and a engine thats been cleaned and rebuilt properly!

 

[Turtle]

Hi Fordy,

At the moment ive decided only to mess with the valve seals, so knowing "if the bores had picked up" wouldn't be relavent to that job I dont think? And if its so important, would you care to help me out and let me know what it is? :glare:

timing belt, tappets and timing are all simple jobs, ive done them before. Oil on the floor? Engine parts everywhere? Wooot? fwn Im not even gonna say anything. I'm not stupid (despite the impression I like to give :grinning: )

As for just replacing the engine... do you really think that job is more straight forward than fiddling with the valves?

I'm going to be studying for a degree in Motorsport Engineering, from the course details ive seen it looks as if im gonna be playing with engines for quite a while in the next few years. I may as well start somewhere.

Hey Arnold/Mod would'ya alter the thread title slightly and move this to K10 mechanical servicing.... cheers!!

 

[bobsp16]

in my 6 years of racing micra's i have rebuilt many ma12's now about 10 i think and got the price down to about £150,that using new rings shells and a full engine gasket and seal kit from payen dont use any others there crap.
I wouldn't even think about replacing any road going micra's engine with one from a scrap yard the chances are that its worse than yours.
Ive always found when stripping down that automatic engine's have alot less ware in the manual one's.so if you are thinking about changing engine's without a rebuild with one from a scrappy go for an auto one but you will need to swop over flywheels.

 

[Ed]

Here here bob. Good advice. K10s are about as simple as engines get, they are very nice to work on, and accessible. Anyone considering doing your own rebuild GO FOR IT. Quite often bearings will be fine. But if changing rings definately try to get the block re-honed, its often after the origional honing marks have warn off that the rings will wear exponentially, and will shorten the life of the new rings if you do not do this.

Ed

 

[Krian]

Hey Fordy,

I do understand what your getting at, but isnt part of the point of MSC for peeps to learn from each other? Ok, at the moment I have a vague idea of how my engine works (bits go bang pushing and pulling on other bits, which make the wheels go round yeah? :blush: ) but apart from that im pretty clueless (tappets? Big ends? Small ends? Err....)

Yeah, I could just buy another engine, but then I'd never actually learn anything. Then in a few years time when I've made the effort to take the engine apart and put it back together a couple of times, and made the effort to upgrade it and modify it myself then i'll be able to help out other peeps.

Plus you never know what kind of service your gonna get from a mechanic or a scrappy doing it for you - just look at all the heart ache micra man has gone through.

Ok, so i might not do a very good job the first time, or the second, or the third. But thats not really the point, is it? Eventually I will do a good job, and i'll be able to transfer that knowledge to any other car I get, because they are all basically the same (this is where some smart alec is supposed to point out rotary engines!) :laugh:

There are loads of peeps on the forums who know loads about engines, look at Ed, Bobsp16, Mrmaz etc, but they weren't born with the knowledge, they all started in exactly the same place I am now.

Just my two pence really.

Krian.
****a learner, and damn proud of it****

 

[bobsp16]

yes but i was alot younger than you about 6 i think when i 1st had a spanner in my hand helping dad in the garage.

i no some people will not agree with me but the best way to lean is by yourself taking things apart taking note were everything goes.
lets face it you dont have to have a vast tools kit to take an ma engine apart one 6mm alan key,10,12,14mm sockets un spanners will about see the job out. i dont think that nissan have a set of odd sockets like 13mm, 17mm is used elsewere
but i would have someone whatchin over you on rebuild,ie rings and gaps,shells in the right way around and use loads of new oil splashing over everything thats metal to metal+torque setting.its like refitting the pistons with the new rings on using an piston ring compresser if youve not used one before get help cus its very easy to snap a ring i did it 1st time cost me about another £50 for a ring set...

Thats so funny about that one alan key bolt in the middle of the cambelt cover why why...lol

 

[Turtle]

and a full engine gasket and seal kit from payen dont use any others there crap.............if you are thinking about changing engine's without a rebuild with one from a scrappy go for an auto one but you will need to swop over flywheels.

Thats really handy advice, i'll look out for those parts. Thank you :grinning:

---

http://www.enginestuff.co.uk/product_info.php/products_id/38858

That is in my cart at the moment, its not clear exactly which parts this includes... Does it include inlet/exhaust gaskets?

Where would I buy Payen parts bobsp16?

Thank you!

 

[bobsp16]

Thats really handy advice, i'll look out for those parts. Thank you :grinning:

---

http://www.enginestuff.co.uk/product_info.php/products_id/38858

That is in my cart at the moment, its not clear exactly which parts this includes... Does it include inlet/exhaust gaskets?

Where would I buy Payen parts bobsp16?

Thank you!

that kit is top end only you need a full set which includes crank seals some orings,oil pump and sump gasket even though thay dont factory fit one(sump gasket that is).

You need a for a ma12 a PAYEN GR160 KIT FROM FEDERAL MOGUL about(£50) which has everything for a complete engine rebuild,
the DR160 IS JUST TOP END(£38) like you have in your cart.
Go to any good motor factor supplyers

But i dont no the code for an ma10 kit you will have to ask them....

 

[Turtle]

that kit is top end only

Thanks for the info bob! Im only rebuilding the top end for now so that'll do.

Needs to be MA10 tho, i'll find out.

 

[Slim]

i disagree ed, i've heard many MA's that have knocking bearing, and every one i've ever owned has had this problem. Bob - i dont believe you can totally rebuild a MA for £150. It's gonna cost that just in machining costs.

 

[Krian]

Put up a post when you find out turtle - im too lazy to find out myself

 

[Fordy]

At the moment ive decided only to mess with the valve seals, so knowing "if the bores had picked up" wouldn't be relavent to that job I dont think? And if its so important, would you care to help me out and let me know what it is? :glare:

timing belt, tappets and timing are all simple jobs, ive done them before. Oil on the floor? Engine parts everywhere? Wooot? fwn Im not even gonna say anything. I'm not stupid (despite the impression I like to give :grinning: )

As for just replacing the engine... do you really think that job is more straight forward than fiddling with the valves?

sorry but the thread the is named replacing piston rings but you are only overhauling the head, this thread needs to be renamed correctly

most of what i said was due to think you where replacing piston rings and therefore not relevent to this thread

 

[Turtle]

sorry but the thread the is named replacing piston rings but you are only overhauling the head, this thread needs to be renamed correctly

most of what i said was due to think you where replacing piston rings and therefore not relevent to this thread

Thats ok dude

I cant rename the thread by editing my first post, i tried. hopefully an admin will do it for me.

ANYWAY

tonight in the pub, my mechanic friend told me that by using 15/50 oil (instead of 10/40), and by setting it to "winter" on the air box i'll burn less oil. So maybe i should try this approach first before doing major engine work?

 

[mrmaz]

Oils

tonight in the pub, my mechanic friend told me that by using 15/50 oil (instead of 10/40), and by setting it to "winter" on the air box i'll burn less oil. So maybe i should try this approach first before doing major engine work?

Changing to a thicker oil may help, not quite sure about the logic behind setting the airbox intake to winter? Don't see how hot air would help burn less oil?? anyone..

But even changing your oil may help! I think you mentioned that you were due for an oil change soon... Ever noticed how much thinner the old oil is (once cooled down) compared to the new stuff of the same viscosity? As I'm sure you know thinner oil will seep past seals etc easier.