More free BHP?

E

ELA

Over here in Germany I can buy 102RON fuel at the pump. If I was to advance the ignition timing, what would be a safe level to advance it to and also how much BHP could be gained in doing so?

Just thought I'd add: I will still be retaining the OEM ECU so it is purely ign adv that I have any control over (just incase you think I have some trick ECU to play with).

Car is a '96 1.0l with Bosch Super 4 plugs, direct ram air inlet (no filter), trimmed throttle, Copper core leads, lightened flywheel...Basically Ebb's Micro Micra mods.

Any advice gratefully received:)
 
ELA said:
Over here in Germany I can buy 102RON fuel at the pump. If I was to advance the ignition timing, what would be a safe level to advance it to and also how much BHP could be gained in doing so?

Just thought I'd add: I will still be retaining the OEM ECU so it is purely ign adv that I have any control over (just incase you think I have some trick ECU to play with).

Car is a '96 1.0l with Bosch Super 4 plugs, direct ram air inlet (no filter), trimmed throttle, Copper core leads, lightened flywheel...Basically Ebb's Micro Micra mods.

Any advice gratefully received:)
Click to expand...

So you copied EBB's idea... Have you done your dyno tests? If not then how do you know if you gain more bhp.... o_0
 
JK, I have owned several cars now and have been tuning cars for many years. The difference in how my little winter car drives now is night and day, compared to a week ago, before I changed these components;)
Trust me fellow, my guess is I have around 20BHP more now than stock. Infact I don't know how this translates in terms of power, but I know a little stretch of road near me, whereby I could previously accelerate from a standstill to 100kph by a certain marker, now the car covers the same distance but is doing around 117kph at the same point. Additional to the mods above the car is also now running on high quality ester based motorsport engine oil, which from SOAP testing I have done in the past, makes a considerable difference in terms of shear stability and friction reduction.
If you have any info regarding advancing ignition timing that would be very useful.
 
Stani, I am trying to source some cams but failing thus far...

Surely someone here has had a little play with the ignition timing? I have just ordered a timing gun so when it arrives I might just have to try a bit of experimenting:eek: I just don't want to go anywhere near det, hence the question
 
Very strange Frank, it makes absolutely no sense how retarding ign timing increased power. Running C16 or Klotz 118 race fuel in my younger days, I was able to advance the timing by 9 degrees which made around 90bhp difference on highly tuned turbo cars.
 
ELA said:
Very strange Frank, it makes absolutely no sense how retarding ign timing increased power. Running C16 or Klotz 118 race fuel in my younger days, I was able to advance the timing by 9 degrees which made around 90bhp difference on highly tuned turbo cars.
Click to expand...

Actually it makes perfect sense if you know the spec of Frank's engines...
 
the 1.0 has extra total advance apparently mate, here,s the printout from the group dyno session, and actually it did show a gain when advanced :confused: the 1,2 and 3 run times are mixed up (1,3,2)
the 1st (blue line) was where i disconnected the coolant temp sensor (and it ran open loop/coldstart enrichment)
the 2nd (green line) was with the c/t/s connected and running closed loop, and my normal timing
the 3rd (red line) was with about 10 deg spark retard

SDC11787.JPG
 
Many thanks Frank, judging by the above printout it seems when running the following setup you made the most power:

the 2nd (green line) was with the c/t/s connected and running closed loop, and my normal timing

Disconnecting sensors and retarding the timing had a negative impact on the performance, as would generally be expected
 
ELA said:
Hi Low Rider, I don't know about Frank's spec however the dyno chart he posted seems to contradict what you have posted if I read the graphs correctly?
Click to expand...

That's because I was assuming Frank was referring to his later engines which were running some pretty mad DCRs...
 
Frank it seems you probably have as good an idea as anyone here then (I'll have to do a little search in a bit for your car); if the stock timing is 15degrees at idle when warm, do you think I would get away with say 18degrees, running 98+RON fuel (I normally use the ARAL 102RON)? By get away with I imply no risk of det.
 
ELA said:
Frank it seems you probably have as good an idea as anyone here then (I'll have to do a little search in a bit for your car); if the stock timing is 15degrees at idle when warm, do you think I would get away with say 18degrees, running 98+RON fuel (I normally use the ARAL 102RON)? By get away with I imply no risk of det.
Click to expand...
worth a try i guess mate, but you will need to do back-to-back dyno runs to prove any gains tho eh.
i personally dont think its worth the extra fuel costs, and more practical gains could be had elsewhere :)
 
frank said:
worth a try i guess mate, but you will need to do back-to-back dyno runs to prove any gains tho eh.
i personally dont think its worth the extra fuel costs, and more practical gains could be had elsewhere :)
Click to expand...

Any suggestions? I have somone on the lookout for a pair of 1.3l cams for me. The difference in price of fuel is around 6p/l. This if often negated by the car running more efficiently on the higher octane fuel. For instance, on the Porker it would actually cost me more in fuel to run the car on 95RON and it would do the car no good (Manufacturer stipulates 98RON). I don't want to go too crazy with the Micra, as it is just a little run-around for Nov-Apr (keeping the salt off the other cars). I'm really only mildly messing with this car as I enjoy the process and the sense of achivement gained with the DIY performance enhancements. I never intended to go down the buying mods route, but if you can persuade me that interesting gains can be made, then I'm sure my arm can be twisted;)
 
You can advance timing on a standard compression CG until the point of losing power on 95RON and not encounter det.
 
Problem is Low rider, I no longer live in the UK so no longer have access to friends who run dyno's. My intent is to use tried and tested methods here as opposed to booking dyno sessions. My guess is that with 102RON fuel and 18Degrees ign adv, the car should make very noticable gains without the need for dyno verification?
Many thanks for your input thus far guys:)
 
ELA said:
Any suggestions? I have somone on the lookout for a pair of 1.3l cams for me. The difference in price of fuel is around 6p/l. This if often negated by the car running more efficiently on the higher octane fuel. For instance, on the Porker it would actually cost me more in fuel to run the car on 95RON and it would do the car no good (Manufacturer stipulates 98RON). I don't want to go too crazy with the Micra, as it is just a little run-around for Nov-Apr (keeping the salt off the other cars). I'm really only mildly messing with this car as I enjoy the process and the sense of achivement gained with the DIY performance enhancements. I never intended to go down the buying mods route, but if you can persuade me that interesting gains can be made, then I'm sure my arm can be twisted;)
Click to expand...
increasing advance will just compensate for the slower burning high octane fuel surely ? and only the way to extract more power from high octane fuel is to raise the c/r :)
 
Low Rider said:
You can advance timing on a standard compression CG until the point of losing power on 95RON and not encounter det.
Click to expand...
aye, i tried my dizzy on max advance (even elongated the slots :)) and still could,nt get the stock c/r 1.3 to pink :) it just ran "harsh"
 
ELA said:
Problem is Low rider, I no longer live in the UK so no longer have access to friends who run dyno's. My intent is to use tried and tested methods here as opposed to booking dyno sessions. My guess is that with 102RON fuel and 18Degrees ign adv, the car should make very noticable gains without the need for dyno verification?
Many thanks for your input thus far guys:)
Click to expand...

Standard ignition timing specification is 15deg + 2deg static timing, so 18deg really isn't going to be an issue.
 
ELA said:
JK, I have owned several cars over 400bhp including one over 600 and have been tuning cars for many years. The difference in how my little winter car drives now is night and day, compared to a week ago, before I changed these components. I do not need to waste €200 for two dyno runs (before and after) to enter an internet BHP p155ing competition. I have a 911 for that game;)
Trust me fellow, my guess is I have around 20BHP more now than stock. Infact I don't know how this translates in terms of power, but I know a little stretch of road near me, whereby I could previously accelerate from a standstill to 100kph by a certain marker, now the car covers the same distance but is doing around 117kph at the same point. Additional to the mods above the car is also now running on high quality ester based motorsport engine oil, which from SOAP testing I have done in the past, makes a considerable difference in terms of shear stability and friction reduction.
If you have any info regarding advancing ignition timing that would be very useful.
Click to expand...

Richard... This strikes me as a really rather rude and arrogant reply. jk9194, like you is a relatively new member and was trying to help. He didn't ask for your history of car ownership (and probably doesn't care), nor did he try to entice you into any "p155ing competition". Please show members here a little more respect.

Like any car forum if you want to come on here talking of BHP gains, then expect to be asked to back it up. You should know with your previous S13/S14 projects etc that you cannot quote power and just expect people to accept it. It's not different here.

As for ignition timing. The Micra engine is not det limited at all. Run as much advance as you can on 95ron and it will just loose power - it won't knock. Exotic fuels are a complete waste on these engines stock. This is why dyno is needed to set them up.
 
Fair point Ed, having re-read what I posted earlier it can come across the wrong way, trust me this was not intended. I'm sure people are sceptical of any info that new members may bring to the table, hence JK's questioning. I just wanted to back up my reasoning for not requiring to do dyno runs, as previous experience gave me an element of certainty in what had happened with my car. Please accept my appologies JK if you have taken any offence to what I posted earlier. I have now amended the post above:)
 
Ed said:
As for ignition timing. The Micra engine is not det limited at all. Run as much advance as you can on 95ron and it will just loose power - it won't knock. Exotic fuels are a complete waste on these engines stock. This is why dyno is needed to set them up.
Click to expand...

Maybe I am confusing how turbo engines are tuned as N/A tuning, isn't really something I have gone into any great detail in in the past. From my limited knowledge, I find it strange that on the N/A Micra engine, no power can be gained from the higher calorific value of the fuel and advancing the timing; this was a key aspect to releasing power from turbo engines.

I am generally aware that it is difficult to extract power from N/A engines and that head work is the key. I am not intending on tuning this car to any great degree as it is just not possible to do in Germany, due to severe legislative restrictions ( I couldn't even change the exhaust manifold for instance and all parts have to be TuV approved).
 
ELA said:
Maybe I am confusing how turbo engines are tuned as N/A tuning, isn't really something I have gone into any great detail in in the past. From my limited knowledge, I find it strange that on the N/A Micra engine, no power can be gained from the higher calorific value of the fuel and advancing the timing; this was a key aspect to releasing power from turbo engines.

I am generally aware that it is difficult to extract power from N/A engines and that head work is the key. I am not intending on tuning this car to any great degree as it is just not possible to in Germany, due to severe legislative restrictions ( I couldn't even change the exhaust manifold for instance and all parts have to be TuV approved).
Click to expand...

Extracting power from the CG series engines is actually surprisingly easy. They are quite de-tuned from the factory and respond very well to the typical intake and exhaust tuning methods, providing the ecu is optimized and by that I mean mapped and not simply being advanced on the distributor.

The standard engines are rated at 75bhp@6000rpm. As Ed states, the CG engines are not det limited in standard form and it is fully possible to yield a 40bhp increase at the same rpm and have no issue when it comes to det risk. This in itself is a substantial power increase and gives an idea on the increase in effective cylinder filling. This was in fact was the very engine I was referring to when I said you can dial in as much ignition advance as you like and you wont det the engine on standard compression.

All I will say is, if you wish to advance the timing and run 98RON or even 102RON fuel in the car, then go ahead. All that really matters is that you enjoy your car :)
 
Thanks for the apologies ELA.

Follow Daves (Low Riders) advice above on exhaust etc (Not sure Germany allows such things) and you'll be amazed of the difference.

As for calorific value, Octane rating doesn't necessarily mean higher energy content. (Oxygenated fuels obviously different) so using better fuel than you need really results in very little gains (not worth the money) Where as your cars of old, would have been severely det-limited on low quality fuels, then the difference you can gain is HUGE. Sadly Nissan designed the CG series for economy and world wide use so have a compression ratio that's mild at best! It does however they respond well to turbo conversions without having to pull the engine to bits!! (Providing they are mapped correctly)
 
Many thanks for the advice guys:) Just a little feedback; I have adjusted the timing tonight to around 19degrees and with the 102 octane fuel there is a notable improvement in pickup and performance, throughout the rev range. I don't know what this translates to in terms of power, but considering it only cost me €30 for the timing gun it was certainly worth the investment. There is only one downside and that is the car now idles at 1100rpm, so come TuV time (MOT in the UK), I will have to knock the timing back again to get within the rev range tolerance for idle (as this is only a 1minute job and a 2yearly event, it is neither here nor there).
 
ELA said:
Many thanks for the advice guys:) Just a little feedback; I have adjusted the timing tonight to around 19degrees and with the 102 octane fuel there is a notable improvement in pickup and performance, throughout the rev range. I don't know what this translates to in terms of power, but considering it only cost me €30 for the timing gun it was certainly worth the investment. There is only one downside and that is the car now idles at 1100rpm, so come TuV time (MOT in the UK), I will have to knock the timing back again to get within the rev range tolerance for idle (as this is only a 1minute job and a 2yearly event, it is neither here nor there).
Click to expand...
hello
could you tell me where did you buy the gun and how exactly did you do that adjustment?
 

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