insurance, always a hateful subject

NeX

NeX

You're after my robot bee
Club Member
hi all,

i want to talk about insurance, as when my car is finally complete it will be worth a lot of money with lots of custom parts on it etc,

market value of the car will be next to nothing so i already know that even the slightest scratch would write off the car.

i have this fear that if i am out with my car, and some blind fool goes into the back of me, the insurance will write off my car and give me a hand full of coppers as compensation. No insurance company is going to believe that someone has put carbon kevlar bumpers on a micra.

so what options are there to prevent this from happening? is there some way that i can get the value of the car assessed and pre agreed before any accident? then i know that no matter what happens i will get that value if the car is declared written off?

i hate insurance so much
 
I don't know what the situ is in Sweden, but surely covering modifications like-for-like is the only way forward with this.

I'll PM Ollie @ Sky and see if he can offer some information up!
 
with my classic cars i have agreed value policies on them, that way if the worst was to happen id get that agreed value as a pay out. its a bit of a pain as you need to have the car inspected and valued when you start the pollicy but its worth it
 
well its good to know that it can be done, though i hate that it has to be inspected, it would be great if you can just say how much you want if you have a crash. i know if someone inspected my car, they would give it a lower value, the years of work and all the one off parts that i have hand made, thats pretty much priceless
 
You need an agreed value policy but bare in mind no insurer (well sensible insurer) is going to value the car at how much you have spent on it.

We (Sky) value a car at how much it would sell for, including modifications, to a like minded car enthusiast, in today's selling market.

Like for like modifications is fine but will only cover you up to the write off threshold for the vehicle.

I have no idea how it works in Sweden though I'm afraid, watch out for moose though ; )
 
Sky Insurance said:
You need an agreed value policy but bare in mind no insurer (well sensible insurer) is going to value the car at how much you have spent on it.

We (Sky) value a car at how much it would sell for, including modifications, to a like minded car enthusiast, in today's selling market.

Like for like modifications is fine but will only cover you up to the write off threshold for the vehicle.

I have no idea how it works in Sweden though I'm afraid, watch out for moose though ; )
Click to expand...


well thats what i don't get, i have no intention of selling my car, i don't want to scrap it, if it is ever damaged i want it repaired. so i want an insurance policy that allows me to do that, no matter what happens i will have enough cash to fix it. i am sure that most people in the world would think its crazy to spend so much money on an old car like i have, and i know no one else would pay that kind of money, so i don't expect the market value to be high. i need something else where i can say exactly how much it would cost to redo the car from scratch and the insurance company promises to pay up to that value if anything happens. in my mind that would be insurance, i am assured that my car is safe from other people damaging it.

to spend loads of money on a car, and more money on insurance and then have a crash which wasn't my fault, only to have the insurance company write me a cheque for £100 isn't really my idea of cover, because my car isn't protected instead i just get compensation which isn't equal to what i put in.

in Sweden they only cover the car, regardless of who owns it and who drives it, which is very nice, but after that, its pretty much the same, the value the car, write it off, and pay a small amount of money which leaves me feeling like i have some how been raped.

but when i had Sky insurance it was very good, though i never had to claim...

i hope the moose out here have insurance!
 
This is the exact reason why I am seriously contemplating not to bother with further insurance on my white SuperS. Agreed value and like-for-like policies, although sounding good will not offer me the level of cover I require.

Coupled with the fact that very few insurers offer lay up policies for non classic cars, it's highly likely that I will make the car trailer only for track days.
 
Low Rider said:
This is the exact reason why I am seriously contemplating not to bother with further insurance on my white SuperS. Agreed value and like-for-like policies, although sounding good will not offer me the level of cover I require.

Coupled with the fact that very few insurers offer lay up policies for non classic cars, it's highly likely that I will make the car trailer only for track days.
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i agree, problem is i have built my car for long journeys, its a cruising car and meant to be driven on the road. i think the only thing i can do is just save up lots of money and keep it as an insurance, then just get the cheapest insurance i can. it would be the same as me paying loads of money to the insurance company and them giving it back when something went wrong, only i know i would get the money without hassle, and just paying for the insurance would be a 3rd party cover and for legal reasons.
 
Im fully comp and £680 for the year modifications declared. Obviously not like for like as whats the point. They'll find someway of screwing us, there all cons
 
From a hateful insurers perspective, where to you draw the line? Do you just keep adding up the purchase price of the car + modifications + fitting cost ?

I'll use my MR2 as an example:

moodybeast.jpg


386235_273547392756732_1718460064_n.jpg


1988, paid £3k for it, I've spent another £11k at least, so the value is £14k? Ha ha ha, no! The value, if I am lucky is £4500, this is what I had as my own agreed valuation and I felt it was slightly over valued. I'd struggle to sell if for £4500.

If it was valued at £14k and I was an unscrupulous individual, I'd go and burn it out in a field and collect my £14k. An insurer is wide open to fraudulent claims if a car is over valued, it has happened to us in the past, a customer's car was up for sale for a long period of time, it was well over priced but the agreed valuation was actually higher than the forsale price, we had a tip off about a fraudulent claim about to happen and sure enough, the car was found burnt out, funnily enough with a few of the higher value mods already stripped off (and found in the customer's garage). Policy void.

We (and I see we because I'm a car enthusiast and modify my own car) do not modify to increase the values of the vehicles, we all know that the money we spend is never going to be recouped unless we break the car down into it's individual components and spent months selling each part, bit by bit.

That is why an insurer is never going to value the car at how much you have spent on modifying it.

Think ****reon saxo, savage body kit, 20"chrome wheels, you know what I'm getting at here, the owner of this wonderful looking creation has spent £20k on modifying it to his/her taste, so.. is that car worth £20K + original purchase price? Well, no.

Car insurance isn't new for old unfortunately and if you think about it, you can understand why.

Ollie
 
Stani1029 said:
They'll find someway of screwing us, there all cons
Click to expand...

No, if you're above board, an insurer is unable to 'screw you'. The people I find who band this saying about are usually the ones who usually non-declare or are less than truthful when obtaining insurance quotes, eg they lie about convictions, then have a claim, claim is void and they forever blame the insurance company for their own mistake.
 
Sorry, one thing I neglected to mention is salvage retention, if possible, always push for this as you can break the car down and recoup you 'investment' that way.
 
i agree that from an insurance point of view, there is a high possibility of fraud, but of course this is possible in almost every situation where money is involved. its not fair that i am unable to insure my car in what i consider "insured" because other people are looking for a quick way to get money.

i understand that the money i have spent on the car is money i will never get back, but then i would rather have the car than the money so as long as i have the car i am happy. but if someone takes the car from me (crash, not my fault, car is a write off) then i am not happy, and to get the car back i need to spend the same money again. so in that regard, i consider my car insured when i know that no matter what happens i will always have that car, the way it is, even if i have to start from scratch i can still get the car i had.

maybe insurance companies should have better ways of judging fraud? for example if i have spent the best part of 10 years on my car, it is logical to think that i wont just set it on fire. also if the car is fitted with security and tracking, that should be taken into consideration. i know that its impossible to know 100% but there should still be a way, because at the moment insurance is not what i consider insured.

in regard to your MR2 Ollie, as you said you spent lots to get that car and how it is now, with the money you would get back from the insurance if it was stolen for example would not be enough money to get the same car in the same condition with the same mods etc. so effectively you have been "screwed" as some people feel, because you insured your car against theft and you got enough money back to buy a fiesta. do you not feel that if something happened to your car which wasn't your fault, you would want what you had from the beginning? like i said, you were happy to spend the money as long as you have the car, even if other people wouldn't spend that much money, it doesn't matter because its your car, but when you don't have that car because it was stolen, you have neither the money or the car, and the money from the insurance isn't the money you put in, and its not enough to get the car back the way it was.

i can see your point from the insurer point of view, but from the customer point of view, it seems that the customer always looses, (at least if they are honest) people think that insurance guarantees that no matter what happens their car is safe, but its not true.
 
Sky Insurance said:
No, if you're above board, an insurer is unable to 'screw you'. The people I find who band this saying about are usually the ones who usually non-declare or are less than truthful when obtaining insurance quotes, eg they lie about convictions, then have a claim, claim is void and they forever blame the insurance company for their own mistake.
Click to expand...

Are you saying im one of those people because i can assure you im not. Ive declared my 3 points and 2 accidents and modifications, ive also valued my car at £2500 which is probably about right. Im with adrian flux who ive been with many a time and to me there spot on

Please explain like for like :)
 
Stani1029 said:
Are you saying im one of those people because i can assure you im not. Ive declared my 3 points and 2 accidents and modifications, ive also valued my car at £2500 which is probably about right. Im with adrian flux who ive been with many a time and to me there spot on

Please explain like for like :)
Click to expand...

have you had to claim with Adrian Flux? one of the reasons i didn't go with them is because they didn't know what my march Cabriolet was, so they couldn't give me a quote, in fact Sky was the only one who knew what a March Cabriolet was, and although it was the same price as my multi car policy with Admiral which covered all my cars, at least i found someone who could insure it.

but i have never had to claim with Adrian Flux, Sky, or Admiral, so i don't know what they are like to deal with.
 
Ive never had to claim before or had an accident thats my fault. All insurance companies are similar, they want as much money as possible and to pay out nothing. I also dont get why insurance companies need to know about penalty points for last 5 years when they dont count after 3 and are wiped after 4! A great explanation please as i see that a a con lol
 
if someone hasnt claimed why ask again for another years payment.

if i havent claimed and the insurance cost has risen or fallen the next year then the premium is the little extra rise..or fall...example £7 extra next year or insurance has fallen -7£ .insurance send me a credit cheque or ask for the seven quid premium.

so in plain site the insurance SCAM is revealed
 
My reason is nothing to do with market value v's build costs which is a valid point for most situations except for classic cars where things can be worth more than the sum of their parts.

My justification is more down to the considerable cost of insurance for the mileage and use the vehicle is used for i.e. <1000miles per year. On a classic policy, insuring our £150k valued race e-type is significantly less than my, for arguments sake £5k K11, due to much more flexible policies available. So it's a matter of perceived value on the whole.
 
NeX said:
i agree that from an insurance point of view, there is a high possibility of fraud, but of course this is possible in almost every situation where money is involved. its not fair that i am unable to insure my car in what i consider "insured" because other people are looking for a quick way to get money.

i understand that the money i have spent on the car is money i will never get back, but then i would rather have the car than the money so as long as i have the car i am happy. but if someone takes the car from me (crash, not my fault, car is a write off) then i am not happy, and to get the car back i need to spend the same money again. so in that regard, i consider my car insured when i know that no matter what happens i will always have that car, the way it is, even if i have to start from scratch i can still get the car i had.

maybe insurance companies should have better ways of judging fraud? for example if i have spent the best part of 10 years on my car, it is logical to think that i wont just set it on fire. also if the car is fitted with security and tracking, that should be taken into consideration. i know that its impossible to know 100% but there should still be a way, because at the moment insurance is not what i consider insured.

in regard to your MR2 Ollie, as you said you spent lots to get that car and how it is now, with the money you would get back from the insurance if it was stolen for example would not be enough money to get the same car in the same condition with the same mods etc. so effectively you have been "screwed" as some people feel, because you insured your car against theft and you got enough money back to buy a fiesta. do you not feel that if something happened to your car which wasn't your fault, you would want what you had from the beginning? like i said, you were happy to spend the money as long as you have the car, even if other people wouldn't spend that much money, it doesn't matter because its your car, but when you don't have that car because it was stolen, you have neither the money or the car, and the money from the insurance isn't the money you put in, and its not enough to get the car back the way it was.

i can see your point from the insurer point of view, but from the customer point of view, it seems that the customer always looses, (at least if they are honest) people think that insurance guarantees that no matter what happens their car is safe, but its not true.
Click to expand...

You raise some valid points but again, car insurance isn't on a new for old basis.

Personally speaking, I am not at all concerned about losing money if I was crashed into or the Mr2 was to be stolen, it's just the way it is, I accept it. I'd just move on to the next project. I haven't spent money and each time worried about getting it back, I know it's money down the drain but I do not make my car faster, handle better or more pleasing on the eye for financial reasons, I do it becuase it is my passion, nothing more, nothing less. I get my money's worth everytime it makes me smile or someone gives me the thumbs up etc, that, for me is worth it's weight in gold and has paid back my 'investment' time and time again.

Think back to the Citreon Saxo example as well. Can I ask you, do you think an insurer should pay out £20k for it in the event of a claim because someone has styled it to their personal taste / wasted £20k turning it into an utter shed?

Cheers

Ollie
 
Stani1029 said:
Are you saying im one of those people because i can assure you im not. Ive declared my 3 points and 2 accidents and modifications, ive also valued my car at £2500 which is probably about right. Im with adrian flux who ive been with many a time and to me there spot on

Please explain like for like :)
Click to expand...

I was speaking generally.

Like for like cover on modifications definition - as it says on the tin really, any modifications are covered on a like for like basis up until the write off threshold is reached.
 
R-REG-SR said:
if someone hasnt claimed why ask again for another years payment.

if i havent claimed and the insurance cost has risen or fallen the next year then the premium is the little extra rise..or fall...example £7 extra next year or insurance has fallen -7£ .insurance send me a credit cheque or ask for the seven quid premium.

so in plain site the insurance SCAM is revealed
Click to expand...

We've got a claim running at well over £1million and still ongoing, that's probably the whole of Micra Sports members annual premiums there for a number of years.
 
Sky Insurance said:
You raise some valid points but again, car insurance isn't on a new for old basis.

Personally speaking, I am not at all concerned about losing money if I was crashed into or the Mr2 was to be stolen, it's just the way it is, I accept it. I'd just move on to the next project. I haven't spent money and each time worried about getting it back, I know it's money down the drain but I do not make my car faster, handle better or more pleasing on the eye for financial reasons, I do it becuase it is my passion, nothing more, nothing less. I get my money's worth everytime it makes me smile or someone gives me the thumbs up etc, that, for me is worth it's weight in gold and has paid back my 'investment' time and time again.

Think back to the Citreon Saxo example as well. Can I ask you, do you think an insurer should pay out £20k for it in the event of a claim because someone has styled it to their personal taste / wasted £20k turning it into an utter shed?

Cheers

Ollie
Click to expand...

i know what you are saying, obviously if you bought a brand new car, and 10 years later you have a crash, the insurance isn't going to give you the money to buy a brand new car again just because it was new when you bought it.

but what i am saying is, the definition of insurance as i see it, is to insure you don't loose out. i am not worried about getting money back, like you said you don't spend money on cars and expect to get the money back, you do it for the experience, and the joy of having a car at the end which is the result of your hard work and unique to your personal taste.

but imagine you have created a car though years of hard work, you have hand molded every part of that car, carefully bolted it together etc, and finally comes your first day to drive it, you have just got it "insured" and you roll out of the drive way, ready to see what happens when you put 600bhp on the ground, when some little old lady comes round the corner and smashes into your car, fully destroying it. the insurance says your car is worth £3000 that you paid for the original shell. not enough to fix the car, or start again.

are you saying you could just accept that and move on? knowing that years of work have been wasted and you never got a chance to enjoy the fruits of your labor? would you not be worried about driving your car knowing that even though you have it insured, someone could still take out your car and you would never have it back?

i certainly mod my car for the experience, but equally as much, i do it to have my dream car at the end, something that is suited exactly to me in a way that no other car could ever do. so with that in mind i want to know that if the worst happens and someone writes it off, i can just close my eyes and say "insurance, make it how it was" and magically everything will be repaired as if it never happened and i can go back to enjoying my car.

i know that is not what insurance does, which is my problem, because thats what i want.


as for the Saxo example, i understand that no one here would pay 20k for a Saxo, but i still think that if thats what it costs to get the owner back what they originally had, then thats what should be done.

i think maybe there could be an exception if it was the owners fault. if i build my car the way i want and on day one i drive it into a ditch, that is my fault, i wouldn't even bother claiming on the insurance, and i would pay out of my pocket to fix it as it was my fault. but i want protection from other people.
 
Sky Insurance said:
We've got a claim running at well over £1million and still ongoing, that's probably the whole of Micra Sports members annual premiums there for a number of years.
Click to expand...

i know it happens like that huge amounts of money.
its just somehow i dont think people not involved or had anything to do with that calamity should pay for it ? thats the unlawfull part .
 
Sky Insurance said:
I was speaking generally.

Like for like cover on modifications definition - as it says on the tin really, any modifications are covered on a like for like basis up until the write off threshold is reached.
Click to expand...

Could you kindly define the write-off threshold please Ollie?

These discussions are very usefull for me and are helping me decide my next choice of direction with respect to insurance next renewal.
 
NeX, unfortunate as it is, to my knowledge there is no product available which will put you back in the same position finacially if you had a claim and had to start again.
 
Sky Insurance said:
NeX, unfortunate as it is, to my knowledge there is no product available which will put you back in the same position finacially if you had a claim and had to start again.
Click to expand...

not surprising that more people are buying cheap cars and only 3rd party insurance, its the only cost effective way to drive
 
Sky Insurance said:
Sure, the write off threshold is usually around the 60% mark.
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So, for example, is it fair to say that an agreed value of £10k...is capped at £6k...or despite the agreed value, if the car is market valued at £3k, (despite the agreed value), the threshold is 60% of the assessed market value, i.e. £1800?

Sorry if that is a totally dumb question Ollie ;)
 
An agreed valuation is exactly that, in the event of a total loss, you are paid the full agreed value figure minus policy excess (if applicable)

The write of threshold is around 60% so if the value of claim on a £10k agreed value is higher than £6k, it will most likely be a write off
 
Sky Insurance said:
An agreed valuation is exactly that, in the event of a total loss, you are paid the full agreed value figure minus policy excess (if applicable)

The write of threshold is around 60% so if the value of claim on a £10k agreed value is higher than £6k, it will most likely be a write off
Click to expand...

so are you saying that an agreed value policy would do what i want?

if i work out exactly how much it would cost me to redo my car from scratch, for example £30k, i can say to the insurance that is the value of my car and they will pay up to that amount if the car is damaged, and the full value - the excess if the car is written off?
 
NeX said:
so are you saying that an agreed value policy would do what i want?

if i work out exactly how much it would cost me to redo my car from scratch, for example £30k, i can say to the insurance that is the value of my car and they will pay up to that amount if the car is damaged, and the full value - the excess if the car is written off?
Click to expand...

If you can find an insurer to value it at £30k, yes.
 
Sky Insurance said:
If you can find an insurer to value it at £30k, yes.
Click to expand...

what are my chances? Sky for example? does it involve them seeing the car, the parts and the work etc and agreeing to my value, or will they just take my word for it? i have a book with details on every little thing i have done right down to the type of bolts and washers etc, would that be enough?
 
NeX said:
what are my chances? Sky for example? does it involve them seeing the car, the parts and the work etc and agreeing to my value, or will they just take my word for it? i have a book with details on every little thing i have done right down to the type of bolts and washers etc, would that be enough?
Click to expand...

You'd have more chance of locating a unicorn. No insurer is going to value the car at £30k.
The maximum Sky would offer an agreed value at is how much the car would sell for, including modifications, in today's selling market to a like minded car enthusiast. It is down to the customer to show evidence to support the value.
Some insurers are over valuing cars for agreed valuations, someone I know has an agreed value of £12k on his ST205 GT4, I think his insurers are barking mad.
 

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