K12 stalling all the time

N

Nicko

Hi, I suspect that this is caused by fuel starvation as I've already had to replace the fuel filler pipe which was completely rusted, so there is probably crud in the tank.

I know about the possibility of a timing chain issue, but the engine can run normally for months at a time, then will only go for maybe 1/4 mile before slowly losing all power and juddering to a halt. Leave for 10 minutes and then maybe get another 1/4 mile before it happens again.

Where is the fuel filter? This is a 2004, 1240cc K12.

Many thanks
 
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Maybe you can use the pump not sure if you can on these but the pump is a quick way to empty the tank..
Not sure how tho probably bypassing some fuse might do it.


Sent from my ASUS_T00P using Micra Sports Club mobile app
 
Nicko said:
Ok. So how to drain tank safely?

We did have the notorious corroded filler pipe which was replaced a few months ago.

Thanks
Click to expand...
That was why I suggested it....... This is the 'Haynes' take on the fuel tank....
K12 Haynes fuel tank.jpg
 
An aquarium syphon pump might be a cheap option...
Syphon pump.jpg

You can quickly inspect what you are picking up from the bottom of the tank, water should show up easily...
 
The water sinks to the bottom when the tank is settle.
That would be a much safer method.
And you will get a good view through the clear pipe.
I think the method I suggested was for quickly draining a tank.
To view it would be nicer you could also use a stereoscope or whatever they call them to inspect the tank also?

Sent from my ASUS_T00P using Micra Sports Club mobile app
 
John_D said:
That was why I suggested it....... This is the 'Haynes' take on the fuel tank....
Click to expand...
Thanks for that - what a pain it is!

Well, I tried syphoning some fuel, but the bends in the pipes make it impossible to drain the whole tank. I let the fuel settle in a clean plastic Jerry can...

Apologies for the poor photo, but you can still see the small amount of rusty water in the bottom.

So, I have water and grot in the tank (not unexpected). Getting the tank off is going to be a major pain, but may be only way forward.

Is there any chance of seeing section 7 of the Haynes manual? The bit about fuel pump removal I believe...

BTW, what happened to micrak12.com?

Thanks
 

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Nicko said:
Thanks for that - what a pain it is!

Well, I tried syphoning some fuel, but the bends in the pipes make it impossible to drain the whole tank. I let the fuel settle in a clean plastic Jerry can...

Apologies for the poor photo, but you can still see the small amount of rusty water in the bottom.

So, I have water and grot in the tank (not unexpected). Getting the tank off is going to be a major pain, but may be only way forward.

Is there any chance of seeing section 7 of the Haynes manual? The bit about fuel pump removal I believe...

BTW, what happened to micrak12.com?

Thanks
Click to expand...
No problems, ..........
K12 Haynes fuel pump removal.jpg
 
OK - It seems that with rear seat removal, I can get the pump and sender out of the tank and that should, hopefully, allow me to drain and rinse the tank without the palaver of removing the whole tank...

Obviously, disconnect battery negative first...
 
Nicko said:
OK - It seems that with rear seat removal, I can get the pump and sender out of the tank and that should, hopefully, allow me to drain and rinse the tank without the palaver of removing the whole tank...

Obviously, disconnect battery negative first...
Click to expand...
Have you got a suitable tool for unscrewing the locking ring?
K12 Haynes fuel pump locking ring removal.jpg
 
Nicko said:
Nope - the manual says to make one...
Click to expand...
Sounds easy, doesn't it............ :eek:
Be VERY careful, petrol fumes are VERY volatile and in the confines of a car the slightest spark will cause a fire ball!!
 
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I understand the risks ?
I've done some high energy physics with VERY high voltages (>>100,000V) and consequently have a fairly high self-preservation factor...
All car doors & windows open. Outdoors. No power to car. Earth strap on wrist, no synthetic clothing... etc.
 
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John_D said:
Have you got a suitable tool for unscrewing the locking ring?
View attachment 70255
Click to expand...
are they taking the piss

@Nicko
You want something like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/Xpork-Extractor-Suction-Diesel-Transfer/dp/B07DF84FL8

You can find different kinds/brands by searching "manual oil suction pump" but they work well for most fluids in a car. Provides much more vacuum than a regular syphon would, which means that if you can get it into the bottom of the tank somehow you should be able to empty it without having to take it off
 
Nicko said:
I understand the risks ?
I've done some high energy physics with VERY high voltages (>>100,000V) and consequently have a fairly high self-preservation factor...
All car doors & windows open. Outdoors. No power to car. Earth strap on wrist, no synthetic clothing... etc.
Click to expand...
Obviously talking to the 'aware' then, one never knows on a forum, so better safe than sorry ;).
 
MattInARedMicra said:
are they taking the piss

@Nicko
You want something like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/Xpork-Extractor-Suction-Diesel-Transfer/dp/B07DF84FL8

You can find different kinds/brands by searching "manual oil suction pump" but they work well for most fluids in a car. Provides much more vacuum than a regular syphon would, which means that if you can get it into the bottom of the tank somehow you should be able to empty it without having to take it off
Click to expand...
It's not so much as 'getting to the bottom of the tank' as getting to the lowest point directly under the fuel pick up, as this is where any water will sit......
 
OK. I did it.

Took battery out of the car. No power tools, no torches/phones, doors open & outside.

Remove the back seat (2 bolts rear, 2 bolts front), undid the cover plate (3 catches), removed the pump/sender connector, unclipped the fuel pipe.

The lock ring is a total b******. I cleaned all the grot off it, hoovered out all the debris and tried to budge it. No chance. Note there is a white dot on the chassis and an arrow on the ring indicating how tight it needs to be... Solid. Solid as a rock (I feel a song coming on).

Soaked the joint in WD40. Went and had a cup of tea. And some cake.

Came back after 20 minutes. No change. Lots of ridges on the ring, so got a BIG screwdriver and a medium sized persuader (hammer) and spent the next 30 minutes tapping all round the ring until it eventually started to move. There are only 900 degrees/2.5 turns until it is undone.

Got the filter/pump/sender unit out. Siphoned out the fuel that was left (about 5ltrs). Remaining fuel removed with clean sponge until dry. Then used micro-fibre cloth to clean any remaining specs of crud. Tank now clean.

Allegedly, the filter/pump/sender is not user-serviceable, but there are three catches which can be gently pried off to get to the filter. See attached photos. These were cleaned and rinsed, then reassembled. Note that the filter can be gently removed from the main body of the unit to ease cleaning...

Getting the unit back in was a complete b****. The unit is spring-loaded and must be held down firmly and then the green gasket slipped under the rim - if its allowed to pop up even slightly, the gasket falls into the tank and you start again. And again. And again... Two man job - one person holds the unit down so the gasket stays in place, whilst the other desperately tries to get the lock ring to engage and tighten.

It took us an hour, and we're both professional engineers (not motoring ones, unfortunately). We had to have more tea half way through. And cake.

Put some clean fuel in it. Car now runs smoothly, but not taken it for a full road test yet.

One slight question - there is pressure in the fuel tank - after I've run it for a few minutes, if I undo the fuel filler cap, there is a fair old bit of pressure there. Pshhhhhhhhhh......

Is that normal? I don't remember that before.
 

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There is a overflow pipe in the fuel filler neck, if that is blocked you can pull a vacuum in the tank.....(which would of course give you your initial problem...........)
 
mine has done that since I got it around 10 years ago, I never bothered to fix it because I thought that was how it was meant to be until just recently

I believe there's some sort of vent alongside the filler neck which you can clean out, and I remember seeing it on someone's blog post about how to do it but again I can't remember which one, I really need to start archiving stuff better my brain is full
 
Normal positive evaporative fuel tank pressure excludes O2 minimising electric float/ fuel pump fire ignition risk.

Evaporative emissions control system carbon canister regulates tank fuel evaporative vapour pressure vented to atmosphere or inlet manifold via 50◦ C cooling water temperature vacuum valve (TVV) & pressure sensitive purge valve control.

Fuel cap is sealed when correctly fitted with no O2 leaks. (y)

Reference: https://www.aa1car.com/library/evap_system.htm
 
plmval said:
Normal positive evaporative fuel tank pressure excludes O2 minimising electric float/ fuel pump fire ignition risk.

Evaporative emissions control system carbon canister regulates tank fuel evaporative vapour pressure vented to atmosphere or inlet manifold via 50◦ C cooling water temperature vacuum valve (TVV) & pressure sensitive purge valve control.

Fuel cap is sealed when correctly fitted with no O2 leaks. (y)

Reference: https://www.aa1car.com/library/evap_system.htm
Click to expand...
Just had a look at the parts book for the fuel tank, and while there is a vent pipe in the filler neck, it appears to be routed back to the top of the tank.......
K12 Fuel tank.jpg
 
So if the vent is inside the filler cap, then it won't help with the tank being pressurised when the cap is on - it's only there to relieve pressure during filling...
 
Nicko said:
Hi, I suspect that this is caused by fuel starvation as I've already had to replace the fuel filler pipe which was completely rusted, so there is probably crud in the tank.

I know about the possibility of a timing chain issue, but the engine can run normally for months at a time, then will only go for maybe 1/4 mile before slowly losing all power and juddering to a halt. Leave for 10 minutes and then maybe get another 1/4 mile before it happens again.

Where is the fuel filter? This is a 2004, 1240cc K12.

Many thanks
Click to expand...
Hi, did this ever get resolved? I have a similar problem. Thanks.
Edit - once I had registered I saw the full chat.
My problem was phase separation - a little water in the tank appears to have caused ethanol to separate from the petrol. We just ran the pump through to under the bonnet and connected another hose to the pipe coming through most of the fuel was fine, but there was about a litre of ethanol/water.
 
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