K11 Caps on a K12?

[SithDowell]

Awrite troops...
Firstly, Hi to all!
I've lurked on the site getting any info I needed from those who've gone through it before me, a big thanks for that
I need help sorting out my hubcaps. I've got Clio 15X6.5 black steelies on mine, they fill out the arches nice and I like the way they look.
I want to put K11 hubcaps on them - they're the 7 inch silver centre caps that you find on K11 steel wheels. It looks like they just push onto the wheel bolts, but when I try it they don't stick in place, just kinda hang there loosely like a stoned koala.
Do I need to change the wheel bolts? Or skelp them with superglue? Or change the wheels?
So far all the mods I've done are wash it and fit an air freshener. It'd be awesome if I could get the wheels looking the way I want them!
Any help would be much appreciated and rewarded by high-fives (or big-tens if you prefer).
Sith

 

[SithDowell]

Nobody? No ideas?

 

[John_D]

What is the hex. A/F size of your current wheel bolts? If, as I suspect, it is 17mm, try some after market bolts with 19mm A/F hex.

 

[SithDowell]

Thanks John_D! I'll get right on that

 

[SithDowell]

Okay....So it turns out that
K11 wheel bolts are 19mm hex with M12 X 1.25 thread;
and K12 wheel bolts are 17mm hex with M12 X 1.5 thread.
So my K11 steelie hubcaps won't stay on my K12 OE wheel bolts and I can't swap them over for the K11 ones. BAWS!
...however...I was about to fork out for some brand spanking new aftermarket wheel bolts that would do the job, when I remembered that Renaults and Nissans share a bunch of parts. Turns out that Clio's, Megan's and a bunch of other models use 19mm hex M12 X 1.5 wheel bolts! Woop woop!
I'm off to the scrappy tomorrow with a 19mm socket (because some of them also use 17mm M12 X 1.5) so I make sure I get the right size

 

[John_D]

Okay....So it turns out that
K11 wheel bolts are 19mm hex with M12 X 1.25 thread;
and K12 wheel bolts are 17mm hex with M12 X 1.5 thread.
So my K11 steelie hubcaps won't stay on my K12 OE wheel bolts and I can't swap them over for the K11 ones. BAWS!
...however...I was about to fork out for some brand spanking new aftermarket wheel bolts that would do the job, when I remembered that Renaults and Nissans share a bunch of parts. Turns out that Clio's, Megan's and a bunch of other models use 19mm hex M12 X 1.5 wheel bolts! Woop woop!
I'm off to the scrappy tomorrow with a 19mm socket (because some of them also use 17mm M12 X 1.5) so I make sure I get the right size

The ones I linked to above (see the hyperlink on my last post) are only £11.50 inc p&p, for a brand new shiny set with 19mm hex and the correct 1.5mm pitch, 25mm thread length, surely a better bet than scrap yard ones?.....

 

[plmval]

The ones I linked to above (see the hyperlink on my last post) are only £11.50 inc p&p, for a brand new shiny set with 19mm hex and the correct 1.5mm pitch, 25mm thread length, surely a better bet than scrap yard ones?.....

More likely to get OEM set screws with high tensile steel to requisite international standards for safety critical equipment.

Cheap bright shiny new ones of unknown provenance from flee bay are perhaps incomparable with OEM to ISO? That’s why used recycled parts from a scrap vehicle may be technically superior, cheap, bright shiny in this case is irrelevant.

Reference: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/nhknewsline/backstories/governmentdemandsanswers/

 

[John_D]

More likely to get OEM set screws with high tensile steel to requisite international standards for safety critical equipment.

Cheap bright shiny new ones of unknown provenance from flee bay are perhaps incomparable with OEM to ISO? That’s why used recycled parts from a scrap vehicle may be technically superior, cheap, bright shiny in this case is irrelevant.

Reference: https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/nhknewsline/backstories/governmentdemandsanswers/

As I worked in the automotive fastener industry for 11 years I appreciate what you are saying....I have however got non OEM longer wheel bolts on my car, supplied (very cheaply) with the UK made 20mm hub centric rear spacers, and foresee no problems with them as quite frankly four M12 bolts to hold a wheel on a Micra is overkill, when you look at the fasteners that hold the suspension on the car, and smaller diameter bolts used to hold wheels on larger heavier cars.
I have, however, had a non OEM locking wheel bolt fail on another car in the past but not surprisingly that occurred when tightening it with an extending wheel brace, possibly hydrogen embrittlement, though no sign of similar problems on the ones currently on my Micra.
I still have contacts in the fastener design industry and am tempted to get an OEM wheel bolt tensile tested against an after market one just for fun....

 

[plmval]

As I worked in the automotive fastener industry for 11 years I appreciate what you are saying....I have however got non OEM longer wheel bolts on my car, supplied (very cheaply) with the UK made 20mm hub centric rear spacers, and foresee no problems with them as quite frankly four M12 bolts to hold a wheel on a Micra is overkill, when you look at the fasteners that hold the suspension on the car, and smaller diameter bolts used to hold wheels on larger heavier cars.
I have, however, had a non OEM locking wheel bolt fail on another car in the past but not surprisingly that occurred when tightening it with an extending wheel brace, possibly hydrogen embrittlement, though no sign of similar problems on the ones currently on my Micra.
I still have contacts in the fastener design industry and am tempted to get an OEM wheel bolt tensile tested against an after market one just for fun....

Wheel Fixing Failures

You say that you have experienced a wheel fixing failure due to incorrect unmeasured torque tightening (Quote: extending wheel brace) methods combined with using aftermarket materials of unknown provenance and with experience are familiar with the safety critical issues at stake?

Quote; “brand new shiny set with 19mm hex and the correct 1.5mm pitch, 25mm thread length via your hyperlink”.

It never ceases to surprise me that people with knowledge are prepared to fit safety critical cheap unbranded Flee bay parts of unknown provenance (ISO) & then recommends them to others with perhaps less relevant knowledge.

Wheel fixing failures on cars and trucks relate to materials/Installation methods of safety critical equipment and testing one example of each, just for fun would be statistically irrelevant on such a small sample and prove nothing. Quote “I still have contacts in the fastener design industry and am tempted to get an OEM wheel bolt tensile tested against an after-market one just for fun”....

References:

http://www.meaforensic.com/wheel-se...metallurgical-expert-mark-bailey-mea-forensic

http://www.metalconsult.com/pdf/wheel_stud_bolt_failures.pdf

 

[John_D]

Wheel Fixing Failures

You say that you have experienced a wheel fixing failure due to incorrect unmeasured torque tightening (Quote: extending wheel brace) methods combined with using aftermarket materials of unknown provenance and with experience are familiar with the safety critical issues at stake?

Quote; “brand new shiny set with 19mm hex and the correct 1.5mm pitch, 25mm thread length via your hyperlink”.

It never ceases to surprise me that people with knowledge are prepared to fit safety critical cheap unbranded Flee bay parts of unknown provenance (ISO) & then recommends them to others with perhaps less relevant knowledge.

Wheel fixing failures on cars and trucks relate to materials/Installation methods of safety critical equipment and testing one example of each, just for fun would be statistically irrelevant on such a small sample and prove nothing. Quote “I still have contacts in the fastener design industry and am tempted to get an OEM wheel bolt tensile tested against an after-market one just for fun”....

References:

http://www.meaforensic.com/wheel-se...metallurgical-expert-mark-bailey-mea-forensic

http://www.metalconsult.com/pdf/wheel_stud_bolt_failures.pdf

Interesting reading, but no where does it put the blame on aftermarket wheel bolts, though I would have expected some mention as I have heard of aftermarket anodised aluminium alloy wheel nuts being fitted to cars which inevitably do strip. My wheel bolt that failed was fitted by a 'professional' tyre fitter, who like most that I have observed, use a large torque wrench, hear the 'click' as the torque is reached then continue to put force on the wrench, not realising that they are continuing to tighten the bolt......
In over 50 years of driving and over 3/4 million miles that was the only wheel bolt/nut related problem that I have come across personally.
My comments about getting a tensile test done 'for fun' was purely to see a potential range of clamping force of an M12 wheel bolt, OEM or aftermarket.
As I see it, you can fit OEM wheel bolts, from a scrap yard, that you have no knowledge of how they have been abused/ over tightened in their 15 or 20 years lifetime or new fit aftermarket bolts which 'perhaps' are made from a lower tensile steel than the OEM ones, though if you look at the ones I linked to they are obviously cold forged/ headed, and are marked with the correct 10.9 grade, whereas I have some OEM wheel bolts that were originally fitted to a Citroen Saxo VTR that are marked 8.8.......
In this case I'll settle for the aftermarket ones.

 

[plmval]

Interesting reading, but no where does it put the blame on aftermarket wheel bolts, though I would have expected some mention as I have heard of aftermarket anodised aluminium alloy wheel nuts being fitted to cars which inevitably do strip. My wheel bolt that failed was fitted by a 'professional' tyre fitter, who like most that I have observed, use a large torque wrench, hear the 'click' as the torque is reached then continue to put force on the wrench, not realising that they are continuing to tighten the bolt......
In over 50 years of driving and over 3/4 million miles that was the only wheel bolt/nut related problem that I have come across personally.
My comments about getting a tensile test done 'for fun' was purely to see a potential range of clamping force of an M12 wheel bolt, OEM or aftermarket.
As I see it, you can fit OEM wheel bolts, from a scrap yard, that you have no knowledge of how they have been abused/ over tightened in their 15 or 20 years lifetime or new fit aftermarket bolts which 'perhaps' are made from a lower tensile steel than the OEM ones, though if you look at the ones I linked to they are obviously cold forged/ headed, and are marked with the correct 10.9 grade, whereas I have some OEM wheel bolts that were originally fitted to a Citroen Saxo VTR that are marked 8.8.......
In this case I'll settle for the aftermarket ones.

With the benefit of experience we pays our money & takes our choice as I also have never had a wheel fall off in 44 years of motoring nor as a result of self-taught cheap as chips DIY minimal maintenance on my part in all that time.

However the Flee bay after-market has more recently become contaminated with cheap unknown provenance fake copy parts with packaging masquerrading as compliant & genuine? Any resulting fatigue incidents may take years to become apparent, blamed on incorrect installation & may be conveniently covered up for years as per the Diesel emissions’ scandal rather than the politically precious unregulated open free trade Wild West market?

A quick search & I could not find any suitably reliable substantive reference accident investigation inquiry reports of car wheel fixing failures due to substandard materials fatigue or incorrect installation. Because I can’t find it does not mean that it’s not out there possibly behind pay walls?