Get Dyno'd 998cc with mods

[reflexuk]

Got the Grape on a rolling road dyno today courtesy of Simon at Get Dyno'd in Buckley, Flintshire.
http://www.getdynod.co.uk/

Mods on the car are -

• Custom cold air feed
• K&N air filter
• Ebb style throttle body
• 1.3 camshafts
• Frankspeed exhaust manifold
• 2nd decat
• Sportex back box

What do we reckon?

 

[karlj]

Is that really 50hp? I thought 1.0's had 55 standard

 

[pork]

I thought with every mod you do, you really should remap it, or am I talking bollocks?

 

[frank]

if its 50 at the wheels its a good figure, did they log the a/f/r,s wayne ?

 

[reflexuk]

Edit - camshafts added to mods list.

Yes that's 50 wheel horsepower, the calculated f/w hp is in (brackets)

 

[karlj]

Yes that's 50 wheel horsepower, the calculated f/w hp is in (brackets)

Ahh in that case, *claps hands* nicely done

 

[reflexuk]

if its 50 at the wheels its a good figure, did they log the a/f/r,s wayne ?

Air : Fuel ratio Frank? No. How would he have done that?

 

[frank]

Air : Fuel ratio Frank? No. How would he have done that?

they shove a wideband sensor up the tailpipe eh, its very useful info

 

[reflexuk]

they shove a wideband sensor up the tailpipe eh, its very useful info

Ah, I see.

I have 2 questions, nobody's mentioned either area yet so I'll lead out -

I expected to see a dip around 4000rpm due to the 'lean fuelling' in the stock map (I read about it on here) but mine seems to show a peak in both curves there and a dip at 4700rpm instead. Anyone know why that would be?

 

[JoeK11]

If you're on 1.3 cams it could be that? And if that's 79 HP at the fly then im impressed, and happy cause I'm on similar mods therefore...

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[frank]

the 1.0 dyno runs i saw a couple of weeks ago were mega rich at the topend wayne (sub 12:1 !) so i dont think they suffer the lean-out in the midrange that the 1.3,s do.
baguete might have some printouts on his 1.0 blog to compare ?

 

[lee k0011]

I never new about this place, and it only 10mins from me..
Might be worth a visit..

 

[reflexuk]

Simon was surprised by the magnitude of the transmission losses, 30bhp and 17ft/lb. He said this was only typical of more powerful cars.
Is this typical for our car?
My gearbox is nice and full of 75w/80, it almost motivates me to switch to an engine oil, 5w/30 semi synthetic perhaps? I've heard it mentioned on the forum anyone had any noteworthy experiences?

 

[frank]

i,ve been running engine oil for ages wayne, what are your tyre pressures ? because i think the dyno uses the "rundown" data when he lifts the throttle to assess the transmission losses

 

[Craig]

That is good going - I had 73 from a 1l but with standard tb and 4-2-1 exhaust, anything else planned?

 

[reflexuk]

i,ve been running engine oil for ages wayne, what are your tyre pressures ? because i think the dyno uses the "rundown" data when he lifts the throttle to assess the transmission losses

Yes, the dyno does use the "rundown" data when he lifts the throttle to assess the transmission losses. This is to calculate the f/w torque and horsepower. It's a shame these are the numbers we bandy around as they are only calculations and therefore have the potential to be miscalculated - sometimes by unscrupulous tuners wishing to impress their customers. Personally I prefer to consider the 'at the wheels' figures, after-all it's only those that matter.

I'm currently on a set of Yoko A021r 185/60/13. Simon asked if I had an lsd in there. I said No. "So what is causing the loud whirring sound?" "Tyres on the rollers isn't it?" I replied. "Are they knobblies?" He asked, meaning gravel tyres. "A bit, they are quieter than knobblies on the road though." I touched them and they were noticeably warm so the pressure would be higher than the 23/24 they measured just now. I purposely set them at 24 because when I compete they come up quite a bit. I've been idle by not pumping them up since my last event 100miles ago. I am aware you can make your car seem more powerful 'for the dyno' by overinflating them so it makes sense that under-inflation would have the opposite effect.

 

[JoeK11]

What engine oil do you use in the box frank? Any issues? My gearbox is bloomin noisy so I might try new oil when I swap engines.

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[frank]

23/24 ! that explains it then
one of my dyno runs a few years ago recorded 80/92 hp (12hp losses)

 

[frank]

What engine oil do you use in the box frank? Any issues? My gearbox is bloomin noisy so I might try new oil when I swap engines.

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10/40 semi joe

 

[reflexuk]

Considering my peak torque came up at 4000rpm and peak power at 6500rpm would there be any benefit in disabling my rev limiter?

 

[frank]

Considering my peak torque came up at 4000rpm and peak power at 6500rpm would there be any benefit in disabling my rev limiter?

the hp is still climbing as it hits the limiter on the printout eh........... so yes

 

[reflexuk]

I did disable it on the white 1.3 I had but this car has a different purpose so I didn't consider it so important.

I guess the question I have to answer now is which way of driving will yield the fastest acceleration. Gearing for peak torque or peak power. By this I mean changing up to drop the next gear in at 3200rpm and up again at 4500rpm ideally picking up again at 3200rpm

or

Changing up at max 6800rpm and up again at 6800rpm. This way hoping the revs never drop into the power plateau at 4000rpm to 5000rpm.

I'm guessing I might sound like an idiot here but I usually drive turbo diesels and I have a clear opinion which is most practical and effective with them (torque)

 

[reflexuk]

Just took another look at the micro micra project and that 998 has a hp plateau between 3800 -4800 rpm too.
http://www.ebbt.no/ebb-s-micra-micra-prosjekt/
half way down - where he tests the spark leads.

 

[reflexuk]

That is good going - I had 73 from a 1l but with standard tb and 4-2-1 exhaust, anything else planned?

I fancy a go with 4 more mods but I'm not sure which has the higher value to performance
disable rev limiter
raised fuel pressure
zero resistance spark leads
Bosch super 4 spark plugs with 1.8mm gaps

 

[tomwest]

transmission losses?!?! when i ran my 1.3 on the dyno (no air filter, fuel pressure reg, no back box, HT leads and spark plugs) i had 80 at the wheels but estimated 120 at f/w....... try that for size!

 

[nathan.warren69]

is 1.8mm gap on the Bosch 4s the best sort of gap? Im thinking of Gapping the new set when I service my car to something around that but not sure of the optimum gap for our cars

 

[Craig]

I fancy a go with 4 more mods but I'm not sure which has the higher value to performance
disable rev limiter
raised fuel pressure
zero resistance spark leads
Bosch super 4 spark plugs with 1.8mm gaps

You're still running the standard ecu? That would be my next step, or skim the block a bit to get more comp? You've kinda done more of the cheaper mods IMO>

Craig

 

[reflexuk]

You're still running the standard ecu? That would be my next step, or skim the block a bit to get more comp? You've kinda done more of the cheaper mods IMO>

Craig

Of course I've done the cheapest mods first Graig, they offer biggest bang for buck, that's why I use a Micra indeed!

What would you be doing with my ECU? Nistune and remap?

I compete against highly modified Escort Mk I's & II's with a value of tens of £thousands and N/A Subaru Imprezza's but the field is mainly made up of Pug 205 gti's, Proton 1.8's (Coupe, GTI etc) Rover 200,25 MGZR, GM Astra's and Corsa's, BMW 318 compacts, and the odd 106, 306, Nova etc. It's not all just about car speed, a good navigator, local knowledge, good lights and plenty of balls make the difference. A quick 0-60 is undeniably useful but reliability and the cars ability to survive being thrown down unmade roads are just as important.

A head skim might be useful but surely a simple swap to a 1.3 would be simpler? The thing is you see, I fear I'm getting near the limits of the transmission and if I did switch to a 1.3 then I'd surely start burning out the clutch and might start snapping driveshafts etc. I have a 1.3 engine in the shed but I'd have to invest in a later model 1.0 gearbox to get best benefit from it. The car is already as quick as a 1.3 I feel (never tested) and shows the pace to pull out a top ten result - possibly - if we go fault free all night. I've seen other Micras do it. I've only done two events in it thus far and both have been affected by navigational errors or forces beyond our control. Event 3 and 4 come up in May, I'll be posting about those in Motorsport section presently.

In the mean time I hope to get back on the rollers at Get Dyno'd soon with a couple of little tweaks to the car and some bit's in my pocket to test. Watch this space.

 

[JoeK11]

A stock 1.3 is fine for your gearbox, or if you put your mods on it you could do a hybrid clutch like frank. The driveshafts I've never heard of being an issue...

 

[reflexuk]

transmission losses?!?! when i ran my 1.3 on the dyno (no air filter, fuel pressure reg, no back box, HT leads and spark plugs) i had 80 at the wheels but estimated 120 at f/w....... try that for size!

Hmm, No disrespect intended, I can give you even bigger transmission losses if I estimate your fw bhp at 130 can't I? I don't know your spec but in short I don't believe it. Simon's experience indicated he doesn't usually see a 30bhp difference between measured whp and calculated fwhp but he doesn't usually get 998cc Micras on the rollers either! Frank has a plot where he only lost 12hp IIRC.

IMHO measured wheel hp is all that matters and calculated fw figures are only ever that, calculated. Different dyno's work differently thus results vary. What you see above is only my (new) baseline, reassurance that the mods done this far definitely have made a worthwhile difference. Not too bad for a car that shows 97800 on the clock. It still doesn't match what ebb dude got going from his micro micra project though does it? But then I haven't done all the things he did. For example, I've paid no attention to compression figures or increasing them, yet that was one of the first things he measured and improved. I've identified a couple of reasons why my results might have been the way they were, I intend correct them and retest, maybe, if I'm lucky.

 

[reflexuk]

A stock 1.3 is fine for your gearbox, or if you put your mods on it you could do a hybrid clutch like frank. The driveshafts I've never heard of being an issue...

Frank has proved it to be fine 'for the road' but he doesn't treat it like what I do does he? Snapped driveshafts are relatively commonplace in road rallying. It's a cumulative problem but some people retired on a private land special section which comprised 2 laps of 2 adjacent go kart circuits. However I accept your statement, Micras are well respected and common in stage rallying, which is relatively abusive to transmissions. They seem to survive many events and must use stock hardware for the most part.
But stages are still not a rough as some of the terrain we tackle on road rallys. I recommend anyone with an interest goes out to marshal and spectate a road rally, it's a fascinating and exciting activity, indeed it's the forerunner and birthplace of stage rallying itself.

 

[JoeK11]

No obviously he doesn't rally his but the 150hp turbo build he's using for drag atm is on stock gbox and shafts with a hybrid clutch from what I know. Not the same as your application but not exactly gentle.
Certainly for you a new clutch would be required for a modded 1.3 as the limit for the 160mm is around 90bhp from what I've heard.

 

[JoeK11]

And mines sat around 80-85(ish, based on known gains from mods) atm and slips if driven hard through gear changes. Takes more if you double clutch or just wait longer and apply throttle gently.

 

[reflexuk]

On a road rally you can be doing a handbrake turn, a standing give way and a standing marshal control within 30 sec. That's effectively three launches in quick succession. I had a clutch fail in preparation for the first rally so I put a new LUK in. On the first one it was frosty and slippery. The second one I experienced a slip into 2nd occasionally, if I did a perfect launch. Rallying tyres are generally larger diameter than stock so it's like doing them in 2nd gear (not quite, but you know what I mean,) all very hard on a transmission. Soon I started to dump the clutch and either bog down or wheelspin, at least the clutch didn't heat up that way, but neither are ideal. Waiting and applying throttle gently are both counter intuitive in competition, especially when you know that engine power is the cars single biggest weakness. I have to make some back on other cars being by nimble, lots of cornering capability and good on the brakes, all of which is obviously risky. In this sport it makes sense to start with a fast road car, but fast cars aren't always quick in the lanes. In this case I'm doing what I can to try to make the grape into a genuinely quick car.

 

[Craig]

Of course I've done the cheapest mods first Graig, they offer biggest bang for buck, that's why I use a Micra indeed!

What would you be doing with my ECU? Nistune and remap?

I compete against highly modified Escort Mk I's & II's with a value of tens of £thousands and N/A Subaru Imprezza's but the field is mainly made up of Pug 205 gti's, Proton 1.8's (Coupe, GTI etc) Rover 200,25 MGZR, GM Astra's and Corsa's, BMW 318 compacts, and the odd 106, 306, Nova etc. It's not all just about car speed, a good navigator, local knowledge, good lights and plenty of balls make the difference. A quick 0-60 is undeniably useful but reliability and the cars ability to survive being thrown down unmade roads are just as important.

A head skim might be useful but surely a simple swap to a 1.3 would be simpler? The thing is you see, I fear I'm getting near the limits of the transmission and if I did switch to a 1.3 then I'd surely start burning out the clutch and might start snapping driveshafts etc. I have a 1.3 engine in the shed but I'd have to invest in a later model 1.0 gearbox to get best benefit from it. The car is already as quick as a 1.3 I feel (never tested) and shows the pace to pull out a top ten result - possibly - if we go fault free all night. I've seen other Micras do it. I've only done two events in it thus far and both have been affected by navigational errors or forces beyond our control. Event 3 and 4 come up in May, I'll be posting about those in Motorsport section presently.

In the mean time I hope to get back on the rollers at Get Dyno'd soon with a couple of little tweaks to the car and some bit's in my pocket to test. Watch this space.

Hehe, I would be surprised if your first mods were a forged engine and ITB's (I've somehow messedup the rest of the font of this post so sorry!)

Yep, some form of standalone ECU is what you really need, don't know if people still use Emanage but, from what I've seen, Nistune is the best solution. I was thinking about megasquirt as it has more functionality going forward, but you will need to work out how to wire it. TBH on a 1l, you are starting to reach the area of diminishing returns; obviously the best bang for buck is to drop in the 1.3 as you'll instantly gain ~33-50%. There was a chappie on here a while back running ~100hp on a 1.3 with the little 1l box and no real dramas; the parts for them are relatively cheap ish so you could get a few spares, won't help you out on the stage though. 0 Ohm leads are probablyworth a try too


Ta

 

[JoeK11]

On a road rally you can be doing a handbrake turn, a standing give way and a standing marshal control within 30 sec. That's effectively three launches in quick succession. I had a clutch fail in preparation for the first rally so I put a new LUK in. On the first one it was frosty and slippery. The second one I experienced a slip into 2nd occasionally, if I did a perfect launch. Rallying tyres are generally larger diameter than stock so it's like doing them in 2nd gear (not quite, but you know what I mean,) all very hard on a transmission. Soon I started to dump the clutch and either bog down or wheelspin, at least the clutch didn't heat up that way, but neither are ideal. Waiting and applying throttle gently are both counter intuitive in competition, especially when you know that engine power is the cars single biggest weakness. I have to make some back on other cars being by nimble, lots of cornering capability and good on the brakes, all of which is obviously risky. In this sport it makes sense to start with a fast road car, but fast cars aren't always quick in the lanes. In this case I'm doing what I can to try to make the grape into a genuinely quick car.

Yeah that's why I said you'll need a new clutch soon, certainly if you go to the 1.3 and mod that. I'm gonna go hybrid soon and all I do is road driving!

 

[reflexuk]

luckily I have a decent LUK 180mm dia clutch plate on my 1.3 engine so the hybrid clutch is on the agenda, for another thread though.
Can't say I've seen a thread anywhere about what can be done with a Nistune or similar, unless forced induction is being applied. Unless I'm mistaken even Frank (with all his fiddling talents) is still running a fusion motorsport base map. Isn't nistune like hundreds of pounds and therefore way out of the question? I think there's lots of other avenues to consider before that.

 

[frank]

yes, we,re still running Ed,s basemap wayne (the one that flew through the mot emissions this month) there,s not much chance of me buying a nistune license, and learning how to map.
and i,ve been doing a spare clutch

 

[JoeK11]

yes, we,re still running Ed,s basemap wayne (the one that flew through the mot emissions this month) there,s not much chance of me buying a nistune license, and learning how to map.
and i,ve been doing a spare clutch

View attachment 22331

Ooh how much frank? Might save me messing mine up! (unless you're using it of course)
I can't find luk around atm...
(sorry for the hijack)

 

[frank]

this one is,nt of any value joe, there,s only half a mil of friction face left, its just a temporary spare if mine was to suddenly fail

 

[JoeK11]

Ahh right cool, where do you get luk clutches from now anyway? I can't find them...

 

[SefSuperS]

mighty impressed with those figures