Engine Machining/Other Engine Bits

[CMF_RTK]

Hey All,

I am wondering how many(with turboed Micra) had their blocks and heads machined? ie; P&P, Decked, Bored, Honed, and Balanced?

Also, what kinda power figures is that at?
I was taking to a Machine Shop, and they reckon I should do some research into seeing if I can get aftermarket and Horsepower rated pulleys and Harmonic balancers

 

[CMF_turbo march-rolling shell]

what are you trying to achieve. you'd only do any engine machining if you were going oversized pistons, rods etc.

why. your not gonna make 500hp out of it, nor spin it any harder then what the stock **** is designed for anyway. only balancers i'd reccomend are ati or the new ross gear. neither make anything for a micra. swear i saw some alluminium pulleys somewhere. water pump, ps pump etc is fine to change over to alluminium. dunno why china ****ers insist on making solid mount harmonic balancers. they are ****. the idea of a harmonic balancer is to take the harmonics out of the engine, or as much as possible anyway. not even drag cars or dedicated race cars use solid type balancers. all it will do is **** your bearings/oil pump drive etc etc etc. if your super keen, get yourself a brand new oem nissan one. they are rubber filled and actually do what it was designed to. your stock one will be like 15 years old, rubber will no doubt be starting to perish etc if your really concerned about it.

 

[CMF_RTK]

I am wanting to run about 15psi/1bar boost and I'm putting in PAR Rods, CP pistons, and t28 turbo, just want to make sure if I'm going to turbo my micra I do it right, and not have to replace/rebuild it again after having something go loose and stuff the whole engine, in less I just get the block decked and bored, and run something not standard?

 

[CMF_SSUK]

Turbo march has built several crazy K11's now and knows his oats, so I will try not to repeat anything he's already added

There is little available for the CG engines, (things are improving), but they're not a tuners engine with a massive following like the SR20 or 4G63 for example where you can buy anything off the shelf.

I have yet to see anyone running a stock CG13DE pulley with a harmonic balancer on an all out modified engine but perhaps they have different motivations. Most seem to opt for the lighter CG10DE steel pulley here in combination with a lightened flywheel. The pulleys are also easily available.

There are alloy crank pulleys available here in the UK, which have a small underdrive by design and also a selection of 'off the shelf' billet flywheels for use with stock clutch fitment and 184mm clutches such as Helix or Tilton.

Have a look here ---> http://www.ttvracing.com/

 

[CMF_RTK]

I am willing to pay for the after market, but I'm not wanting to do engine swaps

 

[CMF_turbo march-rolling shell]

SSUK WROTE:

"Turbo march has built several crazy K11's now and knows his oats, so I will try not to repeat anything he's already added

There is little available for the CG engines, (things are improving), but they're not a tuners engine with a massive following like the SR20 or 4G63 for example where you can buy anything off the shelf.

I have yet to see anyone running a stock CG13DE pulley with a harmonic balancer on an all out modified engine but perhaps they have different motivations. Most seem to opt for the lighter CG10DE steel pulley here in combination with a lightened flywheel. The pulleys are also easily available.

There are alloy crank pulleys available here in the UK, which have a small underdrive by design and also a selection of 'off the shelf' billet flywheels for use with stock clutch fitment and 184mm clutches such as Helix or Tilton.

Have a look here ---> <a href="http://www.ttvracing.com/" title="http://www.ttvracing.com/" target="_blank">http://www.ttvracing.com/</a>

too true. most that mod micras seem to always think that the lightest everything will be fully sick and be best. not at all true when it comes to harmonic balancers. think you will find that a true performance harmonic balancer ati/ross actually weigh quite a bit more then there stock replacement counterpart, my stock evo balancer weighed in at roughly 3lbs, and the ati one i'm using weighs over 8lbs. don't know much about the steel cg10 pulleys, id assume that they work on the same principle as a cg13 one... still dampened. alloy crank pulleys are the devil lol. anyone running one is just asking for premature crank bearing failure. its been discussed on many other forums quite a bit. no doubt it will rev a fly **** quicker then a stock one... if that's what your into.

p.s if your only planning to run 15psi, then i dont really know why your pulling it apart in the first place. building a performance engine isn't always build it once and its mint. major part to consider is oiling and cooling. bearing clearances, ring gaps, type of rings used, pin clearances etc etc etc.

 

[CMF_RTK]

Don't really want to get an aftermarket Harmonic Balancer, think I might just buy new one and the machinist reckons that the best mod you can do is mainly head work, cause you don't want to go out spend all this money on internals, pistons, rods, and balanced and not achieve the power output desired, and not to get anything do until I work out a budget of how much I want to spend, cause he reckons about $4500 for what I mentioned above!!

 

[CMF_turbo march-rolling shell]

RTK WROTE:

"Don't really want to get an aftermarket Harmonic Balancer, think I might just buy new one and the machinist reckons that the best mod you can do is mainly head work, cause you don't want to go out spend all this money on internals, pistons, rods, and balanced and not achieve the power output desired, and not to get anything do until I work out a budget of how much I want to spend, cause he reckons about $4500 for what I mentioned above!!

actually quite the opposite for a turbo car. $4500 won't get you very far when building an engine. unless your after every last hp, spending all your hard earned on a micra head isn't gonna gain you any massive numbers, ports are tiny, and always will be. if i was on a budget (LOL!), i'd be keeping the head stock, tidy up the ports a touch, valve springs, 256's, pistons, rods, and a good headgasket. and be replacing anything that moves in the engine with brand new oem gear, timing chain, oil pump, tensioners, slides, etc etc etc. ALWAYS oem, anything less and your asking for trouble.

 

[CMF_RTK]

So what about decompression then? If your going to run a turbo?
I have seen double head gasket use but I don't want to do that

 

[CMF_SSUK]

The CG10DE crank pulley doesn't have a dampener built into it like the CG13DE does, (pic below).

 

[CMF_climberjoel]

As i understand the cg13 pulley is not a harmonic balance, but rather a dampner to reduce NVH. Im basing this on this sentence out of the micra k11 release document in the articles section of this site which states: 'A crank pulley damper (and flexible flywheel) further help to reduce NVH'.

Ive just received my cg10 pulley in the post, going to fit this wkend. As ssuk shows, the cg10 pulley has no dampner.

Im sure it wont really give me much tangible increase, but I'm assuming as its a dampner it will not do any harm... what are your thoughts tmrs?

Cheers

 

[CMF_asdame]

i'm in process of fitting my forged piston engine running the t2/t25 turbo.
it has JE oversized pistons, automatic block has been bored to minimum specs, decked, head skimmed.
the crank, 200mm helix clutch, flywheel and crank pulley has been balanced upto few k rpm more than it'll ever reach.

check my blog at post 2080 of when i received and assessed the engine from the machinists

http://micra.org.uk/threads/pollymobiles-rebuild.35251/page-42

fingers xx it works and beds ok

 

[CMF_frank2]

the harmonic balancer is there just to cut chain wear surely ? and were,nt fitted to the shorter stroke 1.0,s because they dont suffer crankwhip i guess

 

[CMF_SSUK]

Regardless of opinions, I think it's worth noting that these harmonic dampeners only seem to appear on the UK spec CG13DE & CGA3DE engines. The JDM engines do not appear to have them on any of the CG range be it CG10, CG13 or CGA3.....

 

[CMF_RTK]

So this is what I'm thinking;
- get the head skimmed, with a very mild P&P
- block skimmed, honed
- run standard pistons/maybe aftermarket to drop the compression
- standard rods
- standard valves and springs, JUN Ti retainers
- get some cams
- balanced
- run a piggy back computer for the turbo, like that nismo sister board
- cg10 crank pulley

Your inputs on this would be awesome thanks

 

[CMF_Majiga]

trust me stick to the cheap lol. once u break that barrier of getting something top quality on the car thats it your screwed, everything else has to follow or bits break one by one (hence look at the stoopid car im building now). for me it was fuel pump, head gasket, alternator, another head gasket and radiator (blew a water jacket popped the top off my radiator at 16 psi) then turbo blew. like a systematic break down lol. standard head gasket will only take 10-11 psi. so in conclusion id have to say try stick to oem if u can and under 7 pound or it starts costing alot of money. the cars dont go a hell of alot faster with fancy items over the stock boost set up. just more wheel spin.

 

[CMF_turbo march-rolling shell]

climberjoel WROTE:

"As i understand the cg13 pulley is not a harmonic balance, but rather a dampner to reduce NVH. Im basing this on this sentence out of the micra k11 release document in the articles section of this site which states: 'A crank pulley damper (and flexible flywheel) further help to reduce NVH'.

Ive just received my cg10 pulley in the post, going to fit this wkend. As ssuk shows, the cg10 pulley has no dampner.

Im sure it wont really give me much tangible increase, but I'm assuming as its a dampner it will not do any harm... what are your thoughts tmrs?

Cheers

imo the only time i would use the cg10 pulley is if the complete engine assembly were balanced together, and personally still wouldn't the only advantage i can see is if its slightly underdriven, it'll help at higher rpm. but you can buy underdriven water pump and alternator pulleys... a much better way of doing it, on the micra anyway where no other balancer is available. interesting to note that the later model 4g63's have a very similar designed factory "pulley" that is reffered to as a harmonic balancer, even in the workshop manual, giving details on how to inspect for wear and reccomends replacement if perished.

SSUK WROTE:

"Regardless of opinions, I think it's worth noting that these harmonic dampeners only seem to appear on the UK spec CG13DE & CGA3DE engines. The JDM engines do not appear to have them on any of the CG range be it CG10, CG13 or CGA3.....

i've got a jdm one here. i'll check this afternoon whether its dampened or not.

RTK WROTE:

"So this is what I'm thinking;

- get the head skimmed, with a very mild P&P

- block skimmed, honed

- run standard pistons/maybe aftermarket to drop the compression

- standard rods

- standard valves and springs, JUN Ti retainers

- get some cams

- balanced

- run a piggy back computer for the turbo, like that nismo sister board

- cg10 crank pulley

Your inputs on this would be awesome thanks

why are you going to run ti retainers? the only purpose of them is to make the valve train lighter. you won't notice any benefit in fitting them at all. spend the money on springs instead. wouldn't run the cg10 pulley. but that's upto you 9.5:1 isn't that unboost friendly, i wouldn't have said that 5 years ago, but fuel octane is only getting better, i see united have a 100 octane now. a metal gasket and headstuds would be nice but not mandatory for what you want to do. if i were you i'd leave the engine alone and see how you go with it before rebuilding your engine to basically what it already is.

Majiga WROTE:

"trust me stick to the cheap lol. once u break that barrier of getting something top quality on the car thats it your screwed, everything else has to follow or bits break one by one (hence look at the stoopid car im building now). for me it was fuel pump, head gasket, alternator, another head gasket and radiator (blew a water jacket popped the top off my radiator at 16 psi) then turbo blew. like a systematic break down lol. standard head gasket will only take 10-11 psi. so in conclusion id have to say try stick to oem if u can and under 7 pound or it starts costing alot of money. the cars dont go a hell of alot faster with fancy items over the stock boost set up. just more wheel spin.

dunno how many times i have to prove that the stock headgasket can EASILY handle 15-16psi if TUNED CORRECTLY. if your getting wheelspin, your running **** tyres, and no lsd. i have never had issues with traction, only when running tight ass tyres, nexen etc.

 

[CMF_Majiga]

yes TUNED CORRECTLY im definatly no expert lol im just putting my experience with trying to do all this on the last car and an old holden 6 tuner (with no turbs experience) trying to do it all for me without research.
cost of new cg13 balancer from nissan $234 rang this morning

 

[CMF_turbo march-rolling shell]

Majiga WROTE:

"yes TUNED CORRECTLY im definatly no expert lol im just putting my experience with trying to do all this on the last car and an old holden 6 tuner (with no turbs experience) trying to do it all for me without research.

well there ya go peeps. don't spend money on your car and take it to someone who has no idea and expect it to last lol... prety sure "jcmicra" is up around 15psi now with stock engine aswell

 

[CMF_RTK]

Yeah jcmicra is at 18psi on stock, his car is in the shop at the moment, due to blown headgasket, but when I get home I'll do a more research, currently on my phone

 

[CMF_turbo march-rolling shell]

RTK WROTE:

"Yeah jcmicra is at 18psi on stock, his car is in the shop at the moment, due to blown headgasket, but when I get home I'll do a more research, currently on my phone

damn hey. i thought he ran 14-15psi. when i get koverts silver car back up here i'll be sure to test out the factory headgasket... find its true limits, keep adding boost till the headgasket blows or there's a rod hanging out of the block

 

[CMF_kovert.k11]

turbo march-rolling shell WROTE:
damn hey. i thought he ran 14-15psi. when i get koverts silver car back up here i'll be sure to test out the factory headgasket... find its true limits, keep adding boost till the headgasket blows or there's a rod hanging out of the block

and as long as you video that **** for prosperity, i'll be as happy as bruv! lol

 

[CMF_turbo march-rolling shell]

kovert.k11 WROTE:

"turbo march-rolling shell WROTE:<BR>damn hey. i thought he ran 14-15psi. when i get koverts silver car back up here i'll be sure to test out the factory headgasket... find its true limits, keep adding boost till the headgasket blows or there's a rod hanging out of the block"</DIV><BR><BR>and as long as you video that **** for prosperity, i'll be as happy as bruv! lol

offcourse!

 

[CMF_SSUK]

turbo march-rolling shell WROTE:
imo the only time i would use the cg10 pulley is if the complete engine assembly were balanced together, and personally still wouldn't the only advantage i can see is if its slightly underdriven, it'll help at higher rpm. but you can buy underdriven water pump and alternator pulleys... a much better way of doing it, on the micra anyway where no other balancer is available. interesting to note that the later model 4g63's have a very similar designed factory "pulley" that is reffered to as a harmonic balancer, even in the workshop manual, giving details on how to inspect for wear and reccomends replacement if perished.

That's exactly what we are doing, we run an alloy pulley but only because it was available and a) it underdrives the alternator & water pump and b) has an integral 36-1 timing wheel which was convenient for us.

The whole assembly was internally balanced with out issue for the pulley, flywheel, clutch cover, rod and piston combination we are running.

 

[CMF_RTK]

Looking at Blue monster just before; just noticed he had the block o-ringed, PAR rods (shortened 2mm), Custom pistons (lengthened 2mm), High flow polished head and running 8.2:1 compression

So saying that, maybe I don't need to get so much machining done?

 

[CMF_kovert.k11]

RTK WROTE:

"Looking at Blue monster just before; just noticed he had the block o-ringed, PAR rods (shortened 2mm), Custom pistons (lengthened 2mm), High flow polished head and running 8.2:1 compression

So saying that, maybe I don't need to get so much machining done?

why just follow the bouncing ball bro? i mean really? u intend to go down the same path?? this is exactly why no-one (myself and majiga excluded) is pushing the envelope, because they are stuck with this misguided mindset that the blue monster is the pinnacle of k11 builds and performance...no disrespect to cisco, but it's not... sit down, have a think, do some calculations and customise - make it your build.. that's what TMRS did when building my forged engine...no generic 2mm shortened rods/2mm taller pistons ****!?!... but having just had my ramble, my car as it stands is proof that u can get decent power output with sfa internal mods...invest in a decent ecu, find someone competent to tune it, and u'll be doing skids happily

 

[CMF_RTK]

kovert.k11 WROTE:

why just follow the bouncing ball bro? i mean really? u intend to go down the same path?? this is exactly why no-one (myself and majiga excluded) is pushing the envelope, because they are stuck with this misguided mindset that the blue monster is the pinnacle of k11 builds and performance...no disrespect to cisco, but it's not... sit down, have a think, do some calculations and customise - make it your build.. that's what TMRS did when building my forged engine...no generic 2mm shortened rods/2mm taller pistons ****!?!... but having just had my ramble, my car as it stands is proof that u can get decent power output with sfa internal mods...invest in a decent ecu, find someone competent to tune it, and u'll be doing skids happily

okay, I see what your saying I might looking into engine managements and do some comparing, thanks kovert

 

[CMF_kovert.k11]

autronic SM4 is where it's at....

 

[CMF_SSUK]

kovert.k11 WROTE:

"RTK WROTE:

"Looking at Blue monster just before; just noticed he had the block o-ringed, PAR rods (shortened 2mm), Custom pistons (lengthened 2mm), High flow polished head and running 8.2:1 compression

So saying that, maybe I don't need to get so much machining done?"</div>

why just follow the bouncing ball bro? i mean really? u intend to go down the same path?? this is exactly why no-one (myself and majiga excluded) is pushing the envelope, because they are stuck with this misguided mindset that the blue monster is the pinnacle of k11 builds and performance...no disrespect to cisco, but it's not... sit down, have a think, do some calculations and customise - make it your build.. that's what TMRS did when building my forged engine...no generic 2mm shortened rods/2mm taller pistons ****!?!... but having just had my ramble, my car as it stands is proof that u can get decent power output with sfa internal mods...invest in a decent ecu, find someone competent to tune it, and u'll be doing skids happily

Nail on head dude couldn't have put it better myself

I dis-guarded anything anyone had done previously and went out on my own and did everything as a package specific to our needs, not a combination of bolt on crap. Consequently it means our solutions have ended up being completely different to the norm and suit our objectives and ours only. It's the only way to go, set out an objective first and try not to start at the ideas level, otherwise you end up in a complete mess with money spent and never end up where you initially want to be.

 

[CMF_turbo march-rolling shell]

.... anyway. jdm cg13 pulley/balancer whatever you guys want to call it isnt solid. it is dampened. so don't know where/who said they arent.. but they are. + wow, 8.2:1 is way low for compression, i never even looked at what comp it ran. no wonder the **** tin made crap power. i imagine it'd be pretty gay off boost too

 

[CMF_climberjoel]

thanks for checking turbo, although ive gone ahead and swapped mine for the cg10 one. The massive saving of 700grams over the stock one is really noticeable... we not quite, but it should help