Engine cutting out every 6 months or so K11 2001

M

MAF

Hi, I'm a Newbie. This car has 2 issues.

Issue 1) About every 6 months, it it sailing along nicely for at least 1/2 an hour, then the engine cuts out suddenly and completely and will not restart. The last time it happened I changed the Temperature Sensor for one with the correct value and thought I'd cured it - wrong!!! The thing that confuses me is that such a 'catastrophic event' brings up no fault codes. Does this suggest the issue is with the ECU - if the ECU fails then it does not record a fault or Mil? A friend who knows more about Motronics than me, said it could be lots of minor non-Mil events accumulating over about the 6 months which cause the ECU to shut down the motor - could this be what is happening ?

Issue 2) It sometimes will not start unless I squirt petrol on the air filter and replace the cover. After that its fine.

Any advice gratefully received.
 
Hi guys - thanks

I have a spark but no fuel at injectors. Fuel pump is working. Relays and fuses are bright & shiney. Earths cleaned up and remade. What do you mean by starter switch please?

I've taken the multiplug off the ECU and contacts all clean & shiney. With the ECU hanging on the loom do I need to earth the casing?
 
Agent_Sm1th said:
@tsoob means the back of the ignition switch.
Click to expand...
Ok - how do I check the ign switch please?

Would I have a spark if it was ign switch issue?

If I change the ECU, Ign Lock, Transponder and Key on a 2001 car - do I need a Nats Module/Body Control Module/Immobiliser Control Module as well please?
 
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MAF said:
The latter - the engine cuts out suddenly and completely
Click to expand...
I would try changing your dizzy first, might be an intermittent fault with that.
A few on here, including myself, have had similar with the just stopping dead thing.
The one causing the trouble is normally 42537N 22100 996b04
 
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davyboy said:
I would try changing your dizzy first, might be an intermittent fault with that.
A few on here, including myself, have had similar with the just stopping dead thing.
The one causing the trouble is normally 42537N 22100 996b04
Click to expand...
Hi, Its a 2001 coil pack car - distribution by ECU.
Do these cars have an Immobiliser module - if so where is it and does it need changing with an ECU Kit?
I have a spark, so can it be Ign switch issue?
 
You could check the fuel filter, check that fuel is getting back to the tank, (disconnect the return line and catch fuel in a tin/bucket).

Other than that it could be a fuel pressure regulator or the injectors.
Can you either probe the injectors with a multimeter etc or put a screwdriver against the injector, handle against your ear and see if you can hear the injectors working. It seems unlikely all the injectors would go at once, but it might tell you if they are getting a signal.
 
MAF said:
Hi, Its a 2001 coil pack car - distribution by ECU.
Do these cars have an Immobiliser module - if so where is it and does it need changing with an ECU Kit?
I have a spark, so can it be Ign switch issue?
Click to expand...
The Nats in the coilpack models only consists of ECU, immu(on the ignition barrel), and chip in the key. If you have a standard radio this would need recoding. Check out the other things first though.
 
fuzzy-hair-man said:
You could check the fuel filter, check that fuel is getting back to the tank, (disconnect the return line and catch fuel in a tin/bucket).

Other than that it could be a fuel pressure regulator or the injectors.
Can you either probe the injectors with a multimeter etc or put a screwdriver against the injector, handle against your ear and see if you can hear the injectors working. It seems unlikely all the injectors would go at once, but it might tell you if they are getting a signal.
Click to expand...
Ok - fuel is returning to the tank.
No voltage accross injector plug connections.
I agree - more chance of winning the lottery than 4 injectors packing up simultaniously ;)
Engine statrts if I spray petrol on filter but stops after a couple seconds.
Would fuel pressure regulator stop the fuel - causing a dead stop - and then randomly start it again and be OK for 6 months?
I would add that in the past, a dead engine would normally fire up normally the next day - but this time it won't and hasn't for 5 days. So something has changed.
 
Injectors switch on earth if I remember correctly, so there should be power there, there's a 10A injector fuse in the engine bay? fuse box you could check, also check the contacts. Check if there's power at the fuse.

As far as what might make it stop and then go I'm not sure, sometimes these things make sense when you know the final answer... I've not played with fuel pressure regs but if it were stuck open there'd be little pressure and as result little fuel gets injected....

<EDIT> I just thought yours is a coilpack right, sorry I was thinking of the dizzy engine.
 
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fuzzy-hair-man said:
Injectors switch on earth if I remember correctly, so there should be power there, there's a 10A injector fuse in the engine bay? fuse box you could check, also check the contacts. Check if there's power at the fuse.

As far as what might make it stop and then go I'm not sure, sometimes these things make sense when you know the final answer... I've not played with fuel pressure regs but if it were stuck open there'd be little pressure and as result little fuel gets injected....
Click to expand...
Can't find injector fuse in Eng bay or cabin. All fuses I can find are good.
Earlier I tried to lift injectors out to do a spray test - but they wont budge.
Can I bypass fuel pres reg? How do I recognse it?
When there is a spark, what else could cause the injectors to stop firing?
 
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Spark and injector firing are independent of each other, as the injector has to vary in time to put in more or less fuel.

If you still aren't getting any power to the injectors that's the first thing to sort out.

You could take off the whole fuel rail, I was able to use a syringe with injector cleaner to pressurize the fuel rail then connect a wire to each terminal on injector plug to a 12v battery pulsing very quickly on the earth (like tapping it). Just make sure you spray away from sparks / flame etc.
This way the injector spray cleaned up but I would have been able to identify any not working injectors.

the fuel pressure regulator is a small valve at the end of the fuel rail about 2 - 3 cm across probably has a vacumn tube running into it...
The only way I can think of testing if it's the fuel pressure regulator would be to kink the return hose, forcing the fuel pressure higher butI don't know if I'd recommend it as I'm not sure what would happen other than making it run very rich.

Hopefully someone with more experience with the coilpack engine will help out, cause most of my info is dizzy.
 
MAF said:
Hi, Its a 2001 coil pack car - distribution by ECU.
Do these cars have an Immobiliser module - if so where is it and does it need changing with an ECU Kit?
I have a spark, so can it be Ign switch issue?
Click to expand...
You'll have to ask the leccy boys on that one buddy.
 
davyboy said:
You'll have to ask the leccy boys on that one buddy.
Click to expand...

I reckon the ECU is stopping the injectors from firing - the problem is - what is telling the ECU to do this and why - or is it just a faulty ECU?

I've ordered an ECU kit on the basis that there is no immob module on a 2001 car. Hopefully I can rule out a bunch of things when fitted - if its a goodun.

I've had this car since it was 4 years old - when I was pulling the ECU out, I noticed that someone has been in there messing with the wiring loom as there are a bunch of crimp connectors on one bundle of wires - this was either done before I got the car or it was done by Autoelectrix in Swindon last year when they had the car for 3 days but said they could find nothing wrong. Why would they need to do this - any ideas?
 
I take it you've ordered the ecu,immu,and keychip. I'd check those wires that have been messed with and see what they do. They might go to the ecu.
 
Agent_Sm1th said:
I take it you've ordered the ecu,immu,and keychip. I'd check those wires that have been messed with and see what they do. They might go to the ecu.
Click to expand...

Here ya go:
upload_2016-6-2_10-37-59.png
 
Does anyone know if injectors are wired in series or parallel? My M8 came up with the idea that if its 'in series' then if one faults they all do.
 
like fuzzy-hair-man says, the injectors are signaled via earth and they share a common 12v + feed
so if that feed is suspect, then they fail together
 
frank said:
like fuzzy-hair-man says, the injectors are signaled via earth and they share a common 12v + feed
so if that feed is suspect, then they fail together
Click to expand...
All injectors: click when 12V applied
have no resistance (not shorted)
have 0.56V at each injector plug with ign on.

Looks like injectors & wires are OK.
 
That look doesn't look good, and who knows what kind of resistance it has added...

I've completely stripped an E36 BMW to the shell and replaced the entire wiring loom with one from a wreck before after a gave up chasing annoying, bizarre electrical faults. Worked a treat, but damn was it a job and a half...
 
tsoob said:
That look doesn't look good, and who knows what kind of resistance it has added...

I've completely stripped an E36 BMW to the shell and replaced the entire wiring loom with one from a wreck before after a gave up chasing annoying, bizarre electrical faults. Worked a treat, but damn was it a job and a half...
Click to expand...
Just a thought - could that be the radio connections?
 
MAF said:
Just a thought - could that be the radio connections?
Click to expand...
Ok so this is where I am ATM:

I have not received the ECU Kit yet.
I have a spark
Fuel pump does NOT come on with ign to pressurise.
Fuel pump does come on during cranking and for 1/2 second afterwards.
I have 10.9v at fuel pump plug during cranking..
Fuel is returning to tank during cranking.
Pressure does build up in rail - when I removed Pressure Releif Valve fuel squirted out.
Injectors tick when 12V applied.
No injectors are shorted.
I have 0.56V in all injector wires with ign ON.

I am convinced that the iinjectors are not firing because the engine will fire (but die) if petrol sprayed on air filter and cover replaced.

Whats next to test folks?
 
You should have around 12v at the injectors (as frank said), why you aren't getting 12v is where I'd be looking. Try and trace it back to the ECU, ignition switch or wherever and see if it has 12v there to narrow down the problem. I'd think the 0.56V is some sort of noise back-feed etc not enough for the injectors to fire anyway.

As I said I'm guessing without a wiring diagram for the coilpack engine, but the NATS (Nissan Anti-Theft System) dizzy wiring diagram has the 12V feed to the injectors shared with the feed to the ignition coil so if the coilpack is similar it might suggest if you have spark then it's not a NATS issue (I can't remember what NATS turns off). The feed comes from the ignition switch on this wiring diagram. w/G (white with a green trace).
 
fuzzy-hair-man said:
You should have around 12v at the injectors (as frank said), why you aren't getting 12v is where I'd be looking. Try and trace it back to the ECU, ignition switch or wherever and see if it has 12v there to narrow down the problem. I'd think the 0.56V is some sort of noise back-feed etc not enough for the injectors to fire anyway.
As I said I'm guessing without a wiring diagram for the coilpack engine, but the NATS (Nissan Anti-Theft System) dizzy wiring diagram has the 12V feed to the injectors shared with the feed to the ignition coil so if the coilpack is similar it might suggest if you have spark then it's not a NATS issue (I can't remember what NATS turns off). The feed comes from the ignition switch on this wiring diagram. w/G (white with a green trace).
Click to expand...
Thanks FHM
Thats 0.56V at injectors with IGN ON but not Cranking - I couldn't do both at the same time!!.
You can't have 12v at injectors with ign ON (No cranking) otherwise the cylinders would get drowned ;)
The 0.56V at least proves continuity in the wiring - doesn't it?
If - as I believe - the ECU is not firing the injectors then I will not get 12v there - will I?
If I had 12v at the injectors when cranking the engine would fire (because it does with squirted fuel) but it does not.

Also - why is the pump running on cranking but not on just the ign sw (pre-start pressurising)?
 
MAF said:
Thanks FHM
Thats 0.56V at injectors with IGN ON but not Cranking - I couldn't do both at the same time!!.
Click to expand...
There should be 12V there on both AFAIK
MAF said:
You can't have 12v at injectors with ign ON (No cranking) otherwise the cylinders would get drowned ;)
Click to expand...
No, as we said before they are switched on earth by the ECU so should always be 12V there whilst turned 'ON', the ECU earths the injector at the appropriate time that's why they all have a common power feed otherwise they'd all turn on at the same time (batch fire).
MAF said:
The 0.56V at least proves continuity in the wiring - doesn't it?
Click to expand...
I don't think it proves anything I'd treat it as a 0v value ie nothing...
MAF said:
If - as I believe - the ECU is not firing the injectors then I will not get 12v there - will I?
If I had 12v at the injectors when cranking the engine would fire (because it does with squirted fuel) but it does not.

Also - why is the pump running on cranking but not on just the ign sw (pre-start pressurising)?
Click to expand...
You don't yet know if the ECU is firing the injectors because you don't have 12V at the injectors, as above the ECU earths the injectors to fire them.

My fuel pump turns on with 'ON' and turns off after a few seconds if not fired up, I'm not sure if yours does the same, but will need to stay on after it fires but the ignition is in the 'ON' position, it may be a part of the same problem as on the NATS it shares the G/W feed from the ignition switch.
If you can identify the fuel pump relay and the earth B/Y (Black / yellow) wire you can test it by earthing out this wire (at least on mine and the NATS Dizzy).

Anyone got a copy of the coilpack wiring diagram?
 
Thanks FHM

Is there an easy way I can separately feed 12v to the injectors to test your prognosis?

What could cause the pump not to activate/pressurise when ign sw ON but still ut work when cranking?

The pump used to activate when ign sw ON.
 
MAF said:
Thanks FHM
Is there an easy way I can separately feed 12v to the injectors to test your prognosis?
What could cause the pump not to activate/pressurise when ign sw ON but still ut work when cranking?
The pump used to activate when ign sw ON.
Click to expand...
I'd be trying to find why they (the pump and injectors) aren't getting 12V when 'ON' that is going to be required whatever happens, other problems may be as a result of this.

Is the ignition switch powering the G/W wire? (assuming the same colours and similar wiring)... if it's not the same colours you could find it my seeing which terminal(s) are live (12V) when 'ON' one will be 12V whatever the position the other will feed the injectors coil etc. You could also do it by disconnecting the battery and seeing which 2 terminals give no resistance when ON.

If that works then the problem is somewhere between there and the fuel pump and injectors.

You could give the injectors a 12v feed from anywhere but probably fuse it and you'll need the fuel pump working, you'll need the others working anyway so it would only be use to confirm that it's wiring no injectors and or pump.
 
MAF said:
Thanks FHM

Is there an easy way I can separately feed 12v to the injectors to test your prognosis?

What could cause the pump not to activate/pressurise when ign sw ON but still ut work when cranking?

The pump used to activate when ign sw ON.
Click to expand...

I put 12v into inj plug 1 and the engine starts – whoopee – albeit on 3 cyls.

I just need an elegant way to feed the inj’s maybe wires to dash plus flick switch? Where to intercept the inj wires? Don't really want to fit a scotchlock above inj plug.

I got the colour code of the inj 12v wire but could not trace it back.
 
fuzzy-hair-man said:
I'd be trying to find why they (the pump and injectors) aren't getting 12V when 'ON' that is going to be required whatever happens, other problems may be as a result of this.

Is the ignition switch powering the G/W wire? (assuming the same colours and similar wiring)... if it's not the same colours you could find it my seeing which terminal(s) are live (12V) when 'ON' one will be 12V whatever the position the other will feed the injectors coil etc. You could also do it by disconnecting the battery and seeing which 2 terminals give no resistance when ON.

If that works then the problem is somewhere between there and the fuel pump and injectors.

You could give the injectors a 12v feed from anywhere but probably fuse it and you'll need the fuel pump working, you'll need the others working anyway so it would only be use to confirm that it's wiring no injectors and or pump.
Click to expand...

Thanks again FHM
Yes it is still the G/W wire on this year (from ign to inj) & yes I get 12V ign ON at the sw.
Pump seems to run OK when engine running.
Oh for a wiring diagram :(
 
It depends, you could splice into the G/W wire at the ignition and run that wire to where the injector feeds join cut and solder it... but I'd be worried there's a wire in there that's shorting broken or similar... and will cause other problems.

I don't think there's any need for a separate switch the ignition is doing that already..
 
That wiring diagram is the same I was working from... not a coilpack though

I'd say M29 is a connector, but the codes don't match what's on the wiring diagram, if you try to find the main plug going from the engine bay loom into the cab to the ignition switch and then probe the G/W there to see if you get 12V when ON if so then you could tap in there, your problem is somewhere along that stretch of loom.

You don't want a wire going to the ECU IMO but rather something going to / coming from the ignition that's where the supply is keep following that G/W wire any chance you get test to see if you have 12V when on.
The fault I think is probably before much else joins into the G/W as most other bits are working.

If you really don't want to trace it run a new wire to the ignition switch, ugly but I guess it'd work.
 
Thanks Agent_Sm1th I was getting a headache without it...

looks like the G/W goes into a 2 x 4 plug with 6 contacts which then goes into a fuse box; fuse 21 with a 10A fuse.
 
Thanks FHM

Soldered wire from ign sw W/G to Inj W/G with fuse

Success. Starts and runs nice.

Then one of the coils packed up - quick trip to breakers and back in action.

Just need to put it all back together now:(

Thanks again
 
Uhh that dead coil-pack after hardwiring ignition seems like too much of a co-incidence to me... it's still cutting ignition when the car is off yeah? Haven't bypassed any resistor packs?
 
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Oh right cool.

Blew all of the injectors up in a Volvo once because I bypassed the resistor pack for them, no idea if Micras have the same, probably not
 
Ok - Car has been running fine for a few days then today it would not switch off - key out - it just kept running.
I need to add that the original key is strapped to the ign lock immob ring - so NATS is effectively disabled.
I can only assume that the broken wire (which caused the cutting out) has 're-made' and is 'back feeding' from my new wire.
However my new wire coming from the W/G at ign sw, should be turned off when ign is off.
Any ideas please?
 

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